What's going on in Juarez, Mexico?

[SHOOTALL]

imported

[Graybeard]

I personally see nothing wrong with the outcome in Waco.  I played a small role in providing the supplies to the LEO that took part there.

It is funny that most law abiding citizens criticize the FBI and US Marshals for their actions there.  I don’t like Janet Reno, but I don’t blame her either.  Waco like Ruby Ridge has only one individual to blame,  had Koresh or Weaver walked out and faced the music like a man rather than hide behind the skirts of women and children they would all likely be alive today.  Both had a chance to walk out before the shooting started.

Dee, you say you spent 20+ years in LE, Would you not agree that you, as an officer, would not expect a vehicle operator who is exceeding the speed limit to pull over and accept the ticket like a man?  Or would you expect each driver you stopped to hole up in the car and threaten you with harm? 

I am convince all Koresh or Weaver had to do is surrender and subject themselves to the courts and both incidents would have been prevented. 

You may have provided some supplies but your comments show you really haven't looked into the situation much at all.

Koresh made regular trips out of the compound and could have been arrested at any point had they wanted to arrest him. They didn't want that they wanted what they got.

If they had been serious about serving a warrant on him why not do it like warrants are served every day of the week all over the country? Just walk up to the door and knock or ring the bell during daylight. Don't go climbing up a ladder to sneek in a second story window guns a blazing and call it serving a warrant.

Every federal law enforcement officer involved should be in prison today as should Reno and Klinton.

[rockbilly]

I dedicated 49 years (23 active duty military, 26 as a DAF civilian) of life to ensure we all have the right to freely express ourselves.  During that period I came to realize that in order for any society to continue it had to live by rule, as a Republic it is necessary to ensure a fair playing field for everyone, that said, why doesn’t the same rules apply to folks like Weaver and Koresh?

You speak of Weaver being a victim of entrapment, maybe so, but what did he hope to accomplish by taking refuge?  Did he think the “bad wolf” would go away and not return?  Further, I would think it is awful hard to walk up to a door and serve a warrant when looking down the barrel of a gun. In order for law enforcement to be successful it has to apply the same rules when dealing with anyone, Weaver and Koresh should not have been exceptions.

I have studied both Waco and Ruby Ridge quite extensively, I won’t get into a debate about who was right or wrong, but will say the key for preventing the entire situation was entirely in the hands of these two individuals.   To view this in any other manner is making exceptions to the law, where does it stop?  Enforcement by the letter of the law is the only way this Republic can stand. If you don't belive this, then the next time a cop attemts to stop you for speeding rush home and grab your gun, but keep in mind they will come in and get you,  even if hiding behind the wife and kids.

[Oldshooter]

they will come in and get you,  even if hiding behind the wife and kids

so its ok to kill the wife and kids if i hide behind them! Thats what happened at WACO!

including 17 children under 10 years of age.

Those kids were Murdered!

[ironglow]

  Texas officials offered to peacefully "go get" Koresh for the ATF and the FBI..but they wouldn't hear of it. I distinctly recall Koresh's mother came to the scene and offered to try to talk him out of the situation..her request was rejected ! What kind of a law enforcement "negotiator" doesn't try every opportunity to try talk a person down..especially when it is the holdout's mother that wants to do it ? Why not give her ahalf hour..never can tell how a loved one's request might be received..they were there some 51 days anyway.
  They ignored the opportunity to talk with other groups of the Branch Davidians..perhaps they may have learned some way to best deal with him..they would have nothing to do with that
  They had an turncoat informer who drew a map of the whole compound..so why did they drive tanks over the buried school bus ?
   From what I understood, the authorities could have arrested Koresh any time they wished, since he jogged on the public highway every day.
   Randy Weaver the same, he even helped the agents change a tire one day on the road between his home and town.  To me it looked like they wanted death and destruction in both cases. Don't forget, the agent that shot Mrs weaver in the face often bragged that he could consistantly hit a quarter at 200 yards...so what conclusion must we draw ?
  Perhaps if they had not come to Koresh's door with hard hats, auto weapons and had knocked upon the door, he may very well have talked to them.
 Then they tried to play stupid, saying they didn't know CS gas could cause fires..well..Duh !

  As I (and many others) see it there is just too much inconsistency to be plausible.

[Cabin4]

I dedicated 49 years (23 active duty military, 26 as a DAF civilian) of life to ensure we all have the right to freely express ourselves.  During that period I came to realize that in order for any society to continue it had to live by rule, as a Republic it is necessary to ensure a fair playing field for everyone, that said, why doesn’t the same rules apply to folks like Weaver and Koresh?

You speak of Weaver being a victim of entrapment, maybe so, but what did he hope to accomplish by taking refuge?  Did he think the “bad wolf” would go away and not return?  Further, I would think it is awful hard to walk up to a door and serve a warrant when looking down the barrel of a gun. In order for law enforcement to be successful it has to apply the same rules when dealing with anyone, Weaver and Koresh should not have been exceptions.

I have studied both Waco and Ruby Ridge quite extensively, I won’t get into a debate about who was right or wrong, but will say the key for preventing the entire situation was entirely in the hands of these two individuals.   To view this in any other manner is making exceptions to the law, where does it stop?  Enforcement by the letter of the law is the only way this Republic can stand. If you don't belive this, then the next time a cop attemts to stop you for speeding rush home and grab your gun, but keep in mind they will come in and get you,  even if hiding behind the wife and kids.

What about the government living by the constitution? Why must only citizens follow the law? This government has trampled all over our constitution and bill of rights.

Weaver took refuge because the government worked to entrap him and when they succeeded he refused to cooperate as snitch. This enraged the feds and their actions that followed show it. They murdered his 14 year old son in an ambush and later murder his wife. The orders are clear for the public record. The feds in Washington for the first time in the history of the USA, ordered "Rules of Engagement" at Ruby Ridge. Which means, shoot to kill everyone on the ridge.

All of this because Weaver sold an old sawed off shot gun because he was hard up for cash. Serve him the warrant and take him into custody for that the same way it happens all over this screwed up country.

Sorry, but I can’t believe anyone would defend the incredible and severe over actions of the feds at Ruby Ridge and Waco. In fact, the government paid Weaver $3.1m in restitution so even they concur they screwed up. Yet to this day, neither of the assassins or the people in Washington that ordered the assassinations have been brought up on murder charges. More evidence that the government can trample our rights.

[ironglow]

   I found it curious at the time that the Clinton/Reno "justice" dept decided it was necessary that the media videographers stay a full mile away from the action ! Their excuse was that they were concerned for the medias "safety". This from some of the same p[eople that insisted the media be "inbedded" with our troops in Iraq ! Do we smell a rat ?
  I can recall even seeing videos of the gallant BATF guys in their unbridled meanness, running over the Davidian's personal vehicles which were parked outside the buildings..Of course, perhaps at that time (days before the attack on the compound) the BATF already had decided there would be no survivors to drive those vehicles.
  Furthermore, after all in the compound except for a couple escapees were killed (murdered) the "justice" dept wouldn't allow any reporter or other non FBI/ATF on the scene before the whole scene was cleared and bulldozed..erasing all kinds of evidence.

  Again I ask, how would the Democratic congress have reacted if our troops had participated in such a callous massacre ?

   Here's a little you tube reminder..some pics of those "crazy Davidians" that deserved only death;

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOAzbWtTJHg&NR=1

[williamlayton]

My personal opinion is  that in both Ruby Ridge and Waco BOTH sides wanted a showdown and got what they hoped for.
It was much like the OK Corral.
Be very careful what it is you want.
Blessings

[Cabin4]

William,

It should not, and did not have to be that way. The Governemnt wanted the showdown. They purposley pushed these people at both Waco & Ruby Ridge to play on their fears that "Big Government" is evil and comming to get them. It worked, the feds wanted it to work and Weaver and Koresh were right. Our government is evil.

C4

[SHOOTALL]

william , good point . But the Govt. should never be drawn into or start such an attack on citizens . Finish it after being attacked is expected but starting it never . With Weaver they shot the dog the son shot them they shot the son . Then all rules were changed and all hell broke loose . Guess the American plblic expects more restraint , say like in the Gulf war where they have to get permission to fire at certian targets .
What it looks like is revenge not good police work to most people . What would have happened if weavers cabin had been surrounded and TV crews brough in to watch ? Wait him out offer a chance to come out and go to court with the world watching ? Then if he fired OK . But to hide what was going on smells funny . The Govt. allows reporters in combat so don't waste words about danger . We are not a free country if our Govt. keeps us in the dark .

[Oldshooter]

I know we are drifting off the reservation here but its good dialog.

Shootall, you are exactly right. The same thing applies to Waco (We Aint Comin Out) No need for the showdown unless of course you want one! I really believe Its like the IRS does, they wanted to make an example of Coresh,  and they murdered 17 kids under the age of 10 

[ironglow]

Oldshooter;
   I think it was the Clinker administration checking just how far they could go in attacking groups of Americans without the press or population putting up a howl of distress and taking to the streets.
   Looks like they succeeded quite well, with darn few questioning their attack on that religious compound..

[Oldshooter]

That could be true.

Don'T get me wrong I'm not really a Vernon Wayne Howell, better known as David Koresh supporter. On the surface there seemed to be good reason to take Koresh by the scruff of the neck, but a lot of that surface was created by the media whom we now know to be easily swayed, and not by the facts! I watched and thought at the time this seems to be a contrived drama. When the end came and the tanks rolled and the buildings burned I watched in shock cause I had heard that there were a bunch of kids(AT LEAST 17 under the age of 10) in there that could not possibly be committed to a fight to the death. Especially if Koresh was  half the tyrant he was made out to be.

Its a black eye on the USA and a good example of how if they want you, stick a fork in you, you are done!

[williamlayton]

While I agree with much of the commentary and the commentary on why both should not have happened, they did.
Both sides could have used better sense. If better sense is the answer this world would not be in the shape it is in.
Better sense is the answer---using it is the problem.
I am guilty of breaking the good sense rule---well, all too often.
I read much about not letting the BG's get away with their actions.
Where and how do we know when the limit is set? Who sets it? Who do we trust---and why do we trust them?
I dunno?
I still see these acts as two objects trying too occupy the same space in time and the end results.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

it should be the voters that set it . we need to take back the power and have the will of the people as rule once more .

[beerbelly]

For all of you that think the government was right, you must be willing to be obedient citizens and had over your guns when the government comes for them. And you know they are coming for them!
                                                    Beerbelly

[SHOOTALL]

maybe , maybe not . the cost alone would bankrupt the country . Canada has had little success in 10 years . The cost of court and jails alone would be to high . They could pass laws and only use then as the guns surfaced . You have a problem and the police show up you are in trouble . It would make more sense that way instead of a house to house serch . The fear of getting caught would make some if not many get rid of them . Ammo would get old and useless and a generation or two later the guns would no longer be an issue . Everything does not have to be a war .
A house fire the guns are gone the ammo ruined . how many times a year does this happen ? A break in ? Time is on their side .

[kitchawan kid]

I am afraid you are right,also our kids are being brainwashed in school,it does not look good for the future.