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Offline AtlLaw

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MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« on: March 06, 2009, 09:34:44 AM »
Okay Andy, here it be!   ;D  Let me just whip this thing out...  your target and my notes that is...  ::)

I'll try to take a picture of the target if I can figure out how to do close ups again, but for now:

3/5/09, 3 - 4 pm, 60 degrees, sunny, light wind blowing down range.
NEF Handi Rifle, 22" barrell, throated.  Barrel was sighted in and fouled with several rounds prior to firing groups.  During firing barrel never became any more then slightly warm.  3 - 3 shot groups were fired at 100 yards.
All rounds loaded with 28 gr. of 2400, bullets used were 350 gr. Hornady RNFP's.  OAL was 2.55"

Grp #1:  Load as above, NO crimp:  Average Velocity =  1512 fps; Average Deviation = 29 fps; Grp size = 1.6 inches.
Grp #2:  Load as above, Bullet crimped with Lee Factory Crimp:  Average Velocity =  1482 fps; Average Deviation = 33 fps; Grp size = 2.19 inches.
Grp #3:  Load as above, Bullet crimped with Lee Factory Crimp and 1.5 gr. poly filler added:  Average Velocity =  1468 fps; Average Deviation = 60 fps; Grp size = 2.72 inches.

Recoil was very mild from this load.

From this statistically <in>significant sample we can draw a few <completely unfounded> conclusions:

1.  In group #1, 2 bullets, No.'s 2 & 3, landed about a half inch from each other.  Bullet No. 1 was about an inch higher.  Obvious case of shooter error and this is a half inch or better load.  As futher proof of this you will see if and when I post the picture that if hole # 1 was moved down approximately 1.25 inches the resulting group would be a perfect half inch triangle!    ;D

2.  Groups number 2 & 3, while still nicely triangular in shape, thereby proveing their validity BTW, progressively opened up, slowed down and the velocity deviation increased.  These observations lead this rational tryer of inference to believe that (a) crimping has an adverse effect on velocity, accuracy and consistency, and adding a filler aggrivates this tendency.   :o

Therefore Andy old pal, I can say without hesitation or doubt, that your pet load, as you shoot it, that is w/o crimp or filler, is a mild recoiling, 1500 fps, 1/2 inch load!   ;D  I wouldn't change a thing!   8)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2009, 11:14:15 AM »
I agree with your assessment, MSP's load shoots great as is, and it's nice to know it's moving right along at ~1500fps, thanks Richard.  ;) I shot the group below at 100yds, shots 1 and 2 were made, then I over-adjusted the WGRS peep sight for shot 3, re-adjusted for shot number 4, witness marks are your friend!!!  ;)

Tim
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2009, 12:05:41 PM »
Richard and Tim, thanks to both of you for your learned insight and comments. Richard, a special thanks to you my friend for doing all the work, and especially taking into account I was supposed to send you some loads to shoot through your chronograph for a while now and never did. I am very happy to find out the velocity is on the north side of 1500 fps and the AD was only 29 fps. I knew this load was always an easy shooting and very accurate load out of my 45-70's and is in fact my favorite 45-70 load, although not even a burp compared to your 45-120. Perhaps the close spread of only 29 fps contributes to the accuracy, since it has always been a MOA load for me when I do my part.
Richard, I am also thankful for your work on the effects of crimping and filler, something I have never persued because I was satisfied with the load as I shot it, now I (we) know, what with inquiring minds and all.
Tim, thanks to you as well for your verification of the potential accuracy which this load can deliver.
Now knowing it achieves 1500+ fps I will sleep better at night..

THANKS!!!....<><....:)

and speaking of sleeping at night, Tim, I know I don't have to warn you of behemoths, but Richard..as my buddy Elmer Fudd says, BE WERY, WERY, CAREFUL!!!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2009, 12:22:21 PM »
Behemoths beware!!! ;D
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 07:16:02 AM »
With his eloquence with words I'd love to set around his office and listen to Richard ramrod his crew.  5# tub of popcorn and a gallon 'o cherry coke, be better than most of the movies put out today. :D  DP
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Offline petemi

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2009, 03:16:02 PM »
How many chairs do you think we can get in his office???

Pete
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2009, 04:15:28 PM »
Heck, I would sit in the lap of a behemoth to see that!!!!....<><....:)
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2009, 06:04:52 AM »
Well, cummon down boys!

You know what trying to teach sumpin to new lawyers is like Andy, you tell 'em!   ;D

BTW, they know everything, if you don't believe it, just ask them...  ::)
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2009, 06:23:04 AM »
Rich,
 Just start out by telling them what my pop told me.
  "Look son, I'm old and your young, there is no guarantee you will make it to the age I am now. If you don't make it to the age I am now, how can you hope to know what I do. Don't be smart, stay the way you are."  :D :D :o ::)

CW
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2009, 06:36:25 AM »
CW, well said on the part of your Dad....

and to you Richard, for those that have never worked with lawyers, young or old, especially with defense attorneys, I offer a quote from a young (and quite good) defense attorney I work with during a discussion of a case I had investigated for him, "The truth is irrelevant"...
That quote, which I have hanging on the "Wall of Shame" in my office, goes along quite well with what I would tell young Troopers regarding thier appearance in court, "remember, the guilt or innocence of a defendant (regretfully) has little to do with the outcome of the case in court"....

Hang onto your suspenders my friends, the world is changing quickly, and not for for the better...I am happy our founding fathers do not have to see what "we the people" have made of their fine beginnings....<><....:(
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 04:30:37 AM »
Richard, Tim, and others that use this fine accurate load. Richard and I had a brief exchange a while back if the 350 grain Hornandy bullets would hold up or perform correctly in the 45-70 at the velocities that particular load attains. Yesterday I called Hornandy and asked about the 350 grain RN (#4502), and the 350 grain FP (#4503), the tech there advised me the optimum velocity for those bullets was 1800-2900 fps. I asked about the 500 grain RN (#4504) and he gave me the velocity spread for that bullet 1600-2600. I did not ask about the 300 grain HP (#4500). I usually don't consider HP's for the hunting of derer size and up animals but will call again to check the optimum velocity spread of that bullet. If I can get an accurate load for it it just might end up being a nice light recoiling 45-70 load for whitetails. For what it's worth to yopu guys with the 45-120's they have a 500 grain FMJ at .458 which might be good for rogue dinosaurs in your areas, or for a "Texas heart shot" on any Hogzilla's you might run into while carrying your 45-120's....<><....:)
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Offline BBF

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 09:47:47 AM »
I had a call to Hornady as well in regards to MV for the 350 gr RN and was told it should be at least 1800 fps.  Looking at that exposed piece of lead you wonder why, but then the guys that make them should know.

That same powder( 2400) with 27 to 28 gr produces little recoil when pushing a Rem 405 or Speer 400 gr bullet and those will expand at those lower V's. I don't have a chrono and if anybody is willing to try this load I would like to hear the results from a 22" barrel.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 06:56:58 AM »
Quote from: MSP Ret on March 14, 2009, 04:30:37 AM
the 350 grain RN (#4502), and the 350 grain FP (#4503),... the optimum velocity for those bullets was 1800-2900 fps. ... the 500 grain RN (#4504) and he gave me the velocity spread for that bullet 1600-2600.

Thanks Andy!  Like we talked about, I have often wondered what the velocity ranges of those bullets were.  Since I picked up that box and fired your load I have really become enamoured with the 350 gr RNFP.  As soon as I finish working up a hunting load with the 405 I'm going to look for one with the 350's!   Then a 500!  ;D  I don't think I'll have much problem keeping them within that velocity range!   ::)

Quote from: BBF on March 14, 2009, 09:47:47 AM
That same powder( 2400) with 27 to 28 gr produces little recoil when pushing a Rem 405 or Speer 400 gr bullet and those will expand at those lower V's. I don't have a chrono and if anybody is willing to try this load I would like to hear the results from a 22" barrel.

When I need some more fouling rounds I'll load some up and give it a shot!   ;)  Right now I'm using up the last of my 300 gr HP's.  They are much to soft for my taste but should also work fine with this powder and charge.  :-\
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 07:41:34 AM »
Thanks Richard, I am at the office now getting set for a couple of trials coming up. I have to out to a scene with the lead attorney to re-interview a witness in a few minutes. I just wanted to say those 300 grain Hornandy HP's are just what I was thinking about for whitetails behind 28 +/- grains of 2400. I would think those soft lead exposed HP's might function fine for whitetails at about 1500-1600 fps. However I have never really been a big fan of HP's for hunting. Perhaps you could try a couple of those through your chronograph pushed by 2400 and see what speeds they generate. I know, I know, I ask a lot, but of the outstanding much is asked....<><....:)

edited to correct bullet weight of HP's to 300 grains...
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 07:46:29 AM »
I'll check and see what I have left of those 300 gr. HP's.  But mine are Remingtons.  Shouldn't be much difference.  If there aren't any left in the box I'll break down some of the loaded rounds!  We'll get 'er done pal!  ;D
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Offline moose

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 12:06:01 PM »
Great info and load data............i love my 45/70 H A N D I
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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 06:53:03 AM »
Sorry Andy, I'll bet you noticed I still haven't posted the picture of the target yet.   :-[  I will... I promise!   :)  I don't know when though...  :-\  I always have marched to the beat of a different drum...  :P
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2009, 07:00:50 AM »
Ahh. marching to the pipes and drums, and each to his favorite dirge, a fine enjoyable time...

Richard, I just took a bit of time off from paper work at the office and called Hornady regarding optimum operational velocities for their .458 diameter 300 grain HP Interlock bullet (#4500). I was advised the best velocity spread for that bullet is from 1600 to 2100 fps. I do think that something between 28.0 and 30.0 grains of 2400 (dependig on accuracy) should be a real deer dropper using that bullet. I fear however, it may not have enough recoil to put a smile on your face....<><.... ;D
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Offline BBF

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2009, 09:58:58 AM »
MSP Ret:

 Yo there  :)  you got a typo in the above post, should be .458 instead of .358 for the 300 gr HP.

At Law. Those loads I asked to have a chrono readout are 400 and 405 gr bullets and not the 300 gr. HP's ;)
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2009, 03:49:00 AM »
I have a quick question for you guys;
I have a BC and the grooves are somewhat shallow.  (don't recall the actual measurements off hand)  I may be wrong about this so please correct me if I am so but I thought that shallow grooves were better suited for cast bullets and not jacketed yet here you're getting some great results from jacketed bullets.  Is the Handi barrel made differently than the BC barrel other than length?  Are the grooves deeper and therefore better suited for jacketed bullets or have I got this whole thing wrong? 

To be honest, I'm quite new to the 45-70 and I still need some work getting mine up to decent groups.  I've got the 410 grain cast bullets working well but I've yet to fire a single jacketed bullet from my rifle that's been worth a darn and so I just wrote off jacketed bullets for the time being.  I'm inspired by the data you've demonstrated here and I'm probably going to add 2400 to my loading bench if it seems worthwhile to pursue jacketed bullets in my BC.  Any advice or commentary on this is much appreciated. 

Thanks!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2009, 05:15:22 AM »
They'll both shoot good, sizing cast bullets a bit bigger than the bore by .001"-.002", .459"-.460" usually shoot good in them.  ;)

Tim
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2009, 07:34:48 AM »
Don't know if there is a difference on groove depth between the Handi and the BC but I will say that I have seen a few BCs that would not shoot the 300HPs worth a hoot but have never seen a Handi that wouldn't shoot them under 1.5" at a 100.
Don't know why.
Maybe Tim knows.

Oh TIM!


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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2009, 08:06:29 AM »
I've only shot my 300gr Nosler PP load to see the velocity difference in the BC barrel over the Handi, what little other testing I've done has been with 350gr jacketed bullets, accuracy was outstanding with the right load in the BC barrel. I seriously don't think there's any difference in the barrels, all barrels start out as 36" blanks when they're button/broach rifled, there would be no reason to change the rifling characteristics for the two different barrels.

Tim

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2009, 10:34:30 AM »


Richard, pictures are nice but I believe you about the targets buddy,
after all, you are an officer of the court....<><.... ;D

BBF, Thanks for catching my typo, I have corrected it....<><.... :)

Blackhawker, as a rule of thumb, cast or swaged lead bullets usually require deeper rifling to properly engage the bullet.  Also, as Tim said, both the longer H&R/NEF BC barrels and the shorter 22" barrels have the same rifling.....<><....:)
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2009, 10:39:18 AM »
Thanks Tim.
I knew you would have the dope on barrel grooves.



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Re: MSP Ret's 45/70 load
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2009, 08:11:21 PM »
Tim and MSP, thanks for staightening me out on that.  I thought I might have had that backward.  ???  I also figured that the barrels all start out the same and are just cut to length as needed....therefore no rifling differences.  I suppose my jacketed bullet issues probably have to do more with velocity (lack of it) and bullet rotation/stablization at longer distances.  I guess I've gotta lean on em a little more or something.  Well, the season is here and the range will soon be open.  There should be plenty of time to play around with my BC.

Thanks for the help guys!
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