Less powder, equal velocity

[Mikey]

Hi Veral:  There is a topic going in the Handgun Hunting Forum, entitled Less powder, equal velocity, I would really appreciate your input to.  One of the posters to this thread suggested asking you for your input as you had previously written about that, or a similar topic, and I think it is somewhat in line with the topic on your forum about cut shotshells. 
 
If you are not too busy and would not mind jumping in on the topic I would really appreciate your input.  There is a lot of questionable information available on the net about such things but many of us here, me included, consider you the 'go to' expert for topics such as this and I would like to see what you have to say about less powder, deep seating bullets and the results you would expect and concerns you might want addressed. 
 
Thanks much.  Mikey.

[Veral]

  I spent over an hour writing a lengthy piece on this, a couple days ago, and lost it somehow when trying to post!  Will be a bit more brief this time.

  First of importance, the concept doesn't work in rifles and isn't practical in autoloaders.  Both need to have bullets seated close to the rifling.

  The concept works well in revolvers if the bullet being used can be seated deeper without bulging the cases so much they won't chamber, and if a suitable crimp can be applied to prevent bullets from pulling.  Normally over the ogive, or SWC shoulder works fine.

  Use the slowest powders or bullet jump at high velocity will cause stripping on the rifling which can  degrade accuracy before the desired velocity is reached.  Also, start loading with greatly reduced loads, because pressures climb quick when bullets are seated deeper, which is what gives the ecomomy.  More pressure with a given charge, higher effeciency, velocity wise.

  Gas checked bullets will allow higher velocities than PB, and heavy bearing bullets will perform best.  No bullet design made will give as high an increase in velocity as our WFN's, because their bearing length is longer than any other bullets of similar weights.  Also, they tend to have very heavy drive bands up front, which helps minimize stripping when the bullet hits riflig.

  If you are understanding what I've written above, the two important factors to watch out for are.   1. Reaching max pressure far sooner, ie with lower powder charge weight.  and 2. Accuracy loss from bullets stripping the rifling engagement at lower velocities than when bullets are seated out.

  You will find that LBT bullet lubes will allow higher velocities and produce better accuracy than any other lube because our lubes control friction better.

  Some brands of primers are the same price, whether magnum or standard, while some are listed for both magnum and standard uses.  Magnum primers will tend to ignight powders a bit quicker, which increases efficiency, or velocity per grain of powder.  If you have a selection of primers, try them all to see what gives you the most speed per $$$.
 
  Heavier bullets work better than light ones, due to their long bearing length, which holds the rifling best, and when using bullets designed for gas checks, heavy bullets are much more  likely to perform well  without checks applied.  Leaving checks off can save more money than the powder savings.

  Fire any questions you have on this issue.  I've probably done more experimenting with the concept than anyone else on earth, because the most delightful advantage of this concept is a dramatic reduction in muzzle blast, which I really like for hunting loads.  This because I am NOT going to wear ear protection when in the woods.  Therefore most of my experimenting with deep seating has been with gas checked bullets and relitively fast powders worked at maximum pressure.  Cost of the loads not being of any concern, but noise reduction only.  I'd gladly pay 4 times the cost for a load that has enough power to kill what I'm hunting without hurting my ears than to save some money and damage my hearing.  If you ever talk to me on the phone you'll understand why I cherish what hearing I have left!

  My two most successful revolver loads were.   10 grains of Unique behind a 240 gr WLN, plainbase, in 38 brass, for 357 mag use.  Very quiet, and deadly. Pressures are at mag level, velocity 1100 fps, and accuracy good enough for chipmunks out to 50 yards.  The second and favorite is 10 gr of Universal behind a 170 gr XS, in 38 special brass.  Again velocity is 1100 fps, the kill punch is awsome considering the low velocity, due to the large meplat, accuracy good enough to hit motor oil bottles regularly at 100 yards, shooting offhand, and the report very mild, with no ear misery after a cylinderful without muffs.  A bright spot with this load is no fire when shooting in very low light.  Just a few sparks visable, which don't dim eyssight at all.  This last trait is a Universal powder attribute.  It's the cleanest burning, lowest smoke and flash powder I've ever used.
   

 Fire any questions you have on this issue.  I've probably done more experimenting with the concept than anyone else on earth, because the most delightful advantage of this concept is a dramatic reduction in muzzle blast, which I really like for hunting loads.  This because I am NOT going to wear ear protection when in the woods.  Therefore most of my experimenting with deep seating has been with gas checked bullets and relitively fast powders worked at maximum pressure.  Cost of the loads not being of any concern, but noise reduction only.  I'd gladly pay 4 times the cost for a load that has enough power to kill what I'm hunting without hurting my ears than to save some money and damage my hearing.  If you ever talk to me on the phone you'll understand why I cherish what hearing I have left!

[Veral]

The post about developing a low sound dog training load which was in this position has been moved under the heading about deep seating reduced sound loads.

  On pondering this subject a bit, I believe it wise to inform you that deep seating to obtain stout loads with less powder,  can be less productive than simply keeping bullets seated out so they care close to the rifling and using a faster powder.  Generally one can get about the same results as with a slower powder, tightly confined, but with a load which requires the bullet to jump too far.

  Understand that one of the strong points about most LBT bullet designs is a strong forward drive band outside the case, (revolvers) to minimize bullet jump distence and provide precision alignment before take off.  No matter what one does, you will not obtain maximum velocity potential when bullets are seated deeper, over slow powders, as again, the LBT design also provides maximum powder room to make maximum velocity potential possible.  Therefore, most shooters will probably be most content with results, when trying to reduce powder consumption, to simply use a faster burning powder, operating at fairly high pressure, which optimizes burning efficiency, or maximum velocity per grain of powder.

  There is one little twist to the subject however, and that is burning speed or characteristics in a load with a lot of empty space, vs a tightly confined, and especially compressed load. 
  With the compressed load, and espeically the slower burning powders, like H110/296, powder ignition starts quicker when hit by the primer flash, than it would if there were empty space in the case which causes the primer PRESSURE to be lower than the tightly confined load.  Under the confined condition, burn rate normally accelerates more smoothly.  The reason.  With the powder less confined, it's initial burn doesn't start the bullet moving till pressure builds considerably, at which time the powder is burning faster when the bullet starts moving than it would be with a confined load.           This phenomena can change results dramatically, with any powder, when bullet seating depth is changed.

  If I haven't made myself clear on this matter, fire your questions and I may be able to understand your missunderstanding of my writing well enough to add a few words which clarify things.

  As the saying goes.  People who are crazy are happiest!   Hee, hee, hee!

  Never doubt a man of experiance!

[Mikey]

Veral:  thanks very much for your response.  I think this should clarify the subject for those reading the original posting in the Handgun Hunting Forum and your posts here.  I appreciate the clarification and insights.  Thanks again.  Mikey.