Author Topic: reloading 30 carbine  (Read 1274 times)

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Offline patw

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reloading 30 carbine
« on: March 21, 2009, 03:58:58 PM »
I just decided to pull out the reloading stuff for 30 carbine.  I have a set of Lyman All American dies that I bought back in the sixties.  I started adjusting the dies, and the sizing die starts to seriously neck the cartridge down starting when the case has been sized about half way.  The inside of the neck is then down to .295.  I will try to post a picture of the case.  I did not want to size it down further, but I really would like to full size the cases.  Am I doing something wrong?  Do I need another set of dies?

Offline John Traveler

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2009, 04:24:41 PM »
There is nothing wrong with your Lyman AA dies.  What counts is the inside dimensionb AFTER you expand the case mouth and decap the primer.

The .30 M1 Carbine does not have a case cannelure nor does the case mouth crimp into a bullet cannelure.  The bullet-to-case assembly has to be very tight to withstand the cycling and impact forces in the carbine.

Be sure to measure and gage every sized case.  The .30 M1 Carbine case is one of those calibers that tends to "grow" after every firing, and the case length dimension is critical to proper headspace and functioning.
John Traveler

Offline patw

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 04:55:25 AM »
You were right, I full sized them and after running them through the expander die they do not look so funny any more.  The case length is ok, btw.  I am reloading them for a Ruger Blackhawk, and I want to load them down from full power.  My old ears do not enjoy the noise of factory ammo. 

Offline Steve P

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 09:36:50 AM »
There is nothing wrong with your Lyman AA dies.  What counts is the inside dimensionb AFTER you expand the case mouth and decap the primer.

The .30 M1 Carbine does not have a case cannelure nor does the case mouth crimp into a bullet cannelure.  The bullet-to-case assembly has to be very tight to withstand the cycling and impact forces in the carbine.

Be sure to measure and gage every sized case.  The .30 M1 Carbine case is one of those calibers that tends to "grow" after every firing, and the case length dimension is critical to proper headspace and functioning.

John gave an excellent reply!  I wanted to not only fully agree with him, but to further emphasize his last comment, especially for the Blackhawk.  Measure every case before you load it.  The Blackhawk is the most finicky SOB when it comes to 30 carbine ammo.  If not perfect length, it will stick out of the cylinder, or drop in too far and not fire.   

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2009, 10:37:05 AM »
As already noted, trimming is crucial to the Blackhawk.  My old model Blackhawk will not index if a cartridge if not properly trimmed and its a PAIN in the *** to get the cylinder out when they bind up.  I have never had a short cartridge not fire but perhaps that is a problem with the new model Blackhawks.  ??? 

On a last note, be sure to de-burr everything as well.  ANY little particle of brass or scraping of copper from a jacket will bind up on the headspace and not allow you to chamber the round correctly.  If you have any particles jammed in the headspace, you won't really know it's a problem until you've indexed the cylinder one or two times.

I may be making this sound worse than it is.  I think this happens to me about 1 round out of every three or four hundred.  However, if you're not aware of it, it might occur a lot more often.

As for your ears.....where are your ear muffs?  If you're shooting a 30 carbine from a pistol without ear protection you should be deaf by now.  These have to be the loudest handguns on the market!  Loading down will not save your ears.
Remember:  Safety first!!....get some ear protection!


Offline patw

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2009, 05:24:08 PM »
I have measured all the cases  and they are all correct.  I wish I knew how many times I have had to take the cylinder to get a jammed case out.  I have not tried reloading this in forever, probably 30 years or more.  The Blackhawk has been sitting in the safe too long.  Nostalgia took over, I decided that it was time to get it out and I just started getting the components together.  It was the first revolver I bought, back around 1970.  Back then I was indestructible, and I remember going out and shooting a box of shells with a friend, no ear protection.  We talked the next day, and our ears were still ringing.  Nowadays I am a lot older and a little bit wiser.  I always wear hearing protection now, but I find that even then, loud guns are still uncomfortable. 

Since you shoot the 30M1 in a pistol, have you loaded it to less than full loads and do they still shoot good?  I compared the capacity of the 30 carbine and 32-20 as a starting point for lower power loads, and found they are comparable.  However, the 30 has a twist of 1/20 whereas the 32-20 is 1/10, so i wonder if lower velocities will stabilize the bullet.  It will be fun trying.

I also tried trimming a 32-20 case to the correct length for the Blackhawk, thinking a rimmed cartridge would be nice.  The rim is too thick, the cylinder jams up.  When I have time I am going to take a few 32-20 cases to the lathe and thin the rim down.  I realize it would only be for 32-20 type loads, but if they chamber easier, it would be worth it.

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 04:51:05 AM »
Patw, I don't think I would play with the 32-20 brass as you described.  If you can't get the carbine brass to work, why would the modified 32-20 brass work?  ....and is it really worth the trouble?  Carbine brass can be loaded over and over again.  That 32-20 brass is pretty thin and you might get 2 loads from it despite all of the work you'd put into it. 

Question:  Are you loading military brass into your Blackhawk?  I've gone through that for years and about 5 years ago I threw it all away or left if on the ground at the range.  I only work with Remington brass now.  I try to stay with one brand.  Winchester or Remington will do fine.  I use both standard brass and nickel plated brass.  A friend of mine who also has a 30 carbine Blackhawk gave me all of his nickel plated brass because he had problems with it jamming up in his cylinder.  It's a little tight in mine but I manage. 

I have a suspicion (and I may be wrong here) that if your trimming to the correct length AND properly deburring the case mouths, then perhaps your sizing die may be the problem.  A second suspicion may be in your brass itself.  Are you loading brass that was fired from an actual M1 Carbine rifle?  Sometimes the rifles can leave a burr on the case rim from the extractor banging into it.  The distortion in the rim can lead to improper chambering in the old model Blackhawk since the rim itself seats into the cylinder recessing.  A last suspicion lies in the gun cylinder.  Is there any fouling on the headspace area in your cylinder?  Check and see.  Any residues can and will prevent your cartridges from seating correctly (and jamming against the inside of the frame when indexing).

Here is what I would try:
First, give your cylinder a full and complete cleaning in order that any old oil or fouling residues are removed.  Once you've cleaned it....clean it again!  :)  Then try seating some rounds.  If that doesn't work, then I'd suggest buying 100 rounds of new Remington (or Winchester) brass and buying a new resizing die.  (I'd probably get a new die anyway)  Lee sells the complete set (carbide) pretty cheap.  Resize the new brass fully, trim it, de-bur it, and load it.  See what you get from there.  Another thing to keep in mind is that although the die for the 30 carbine is or may be carbide, I find that I still need to use a little lubricant.  Unlubed cases tend to take a lot of force to pull out of the die and sometimes the shell holder can pull the shape of the rim out of round.  I find that to be the case often with 45 Colt ammo, so I always lube my brass (just a little) despite the use of a carbide die. 

I have never loaded my 30 carbine rounds down to be honest.  I always load to near full loads using either H-110, Winchester 296, or IMR 4227.  Ironically, I've just begun looking into trying some loads using 2400 and Unique however. 

If you are loading down just on account of the volume of the gun, perhaps you might try double hearing protection.  My friend once used ear plugs inside his headset protection, especially when shooting indoors.  Those little rounds can really shake a room when indoors!  (It's funny how people come around and ask what you're shooting....only to show them this little, scrawny 30 cal. round.)

I've been shooting my old model Blackhawk for about 25 years.  In fact, (ironically) it was the first handgun (other than a .22) that I purchased too.  I shoot it often and take it out in the field a lot.  Typically, I plink and hunt prairie dogs with mine and I've made some amazing shots with that thing, often times making over 100 yard kills with open sights.  I've now mounted a scope on mine.  Several years ago, with the scope mounted, I played around and tried to see exactly what that pistol can really do at a distance.  I decided to try some long shots at some beer bottles and clay pigeons.  (no, I wasn't drinking and shooting...the bottles were just available at the time)  At 200 yards, resting on a sandbag, my first full cylinder full scored 3 pigeons and 2 bottles.  I'd say that's more than what one would expect from a little round like the 30 carbine out of a pistol.  In fact, that's probably better results than one would expect from an original M1 Carbine. 

Good luck with your loading.  I'm sure that you'll get that old Blackhawk working right....and when you do, ENJOY!  They're a ton of fun!

Offline patw

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 04:08:32 PM »
Blackhawker, thanks for the help.  I started cleaning the cylinder, and that was a good starting point.  I thought it was clean, but, as you said, it needed more cleaning.  All the brass is Remington, once fired in the Blackhawk.  All of them are the correct length and deburred.  Even though they were factory rounds, I remember that some of them would be a little tight when it came to extracting.  One thing I noticed is that the Lyman dies that I have will only size the cases about halfway.  The fully sized cases will still stick in the cylinder.  Unfired factory rounds fit fine, so I think I will be getting some new dies.  I have (finally) found some Lee carbide dies at F and M Reloading equipment.  I had gone to the usual distributors and they were all sold out.  This crap of everything being on backorder is getting old!!  Oh, and thanks for talking me out of working on 32-20 brass, it would have taken forever.

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 04:20:07 AM »
Patw,
You're more than welcome for the advice.  Next to the 45 Colt, I'd say that the 30 carbine has been my most loaded round of all the ammo I load.  I have a Universal M1 that I'm not really fond of and I haven't used it in eons.  Truthfully, I hate chasing brass all over the place.  That being the case, I load for the Blackhawk exclusively and have been through just about all of the possible pitfalls of the Blackhawk chambering problems with that round.  I find it odd that full length sizing causes the cases to bind up.  In fact, I believe that most of the difficulty with extraction is due to the case expansion, so I can't figure why full sizing would cause a problem.  The only thing I can think of is that your dies are not sizing correctly (to the correct size).  I have Lee dies and have never had any problems with chambering etc from full length sizing nor does my friend who also loads for the Blackhawk exclusively.  Perhaps the new dies that you have on order will remedy the problems you're having. 

I know what you mean about backorders.  Pain in the butt!  However, if you can cancel the order, you might try Cabela's.  They typically have a good stock of dies in the store...and of course, you could always order on line with them too.  They're a big enough supplier, they should have what you're looking for, if you don't want to wait for your order.  Another source would be Midway USA. 

Good luck and happy shooting!

Offline patw

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 07:49:56 AM »
The factory rounds fit fine.  The once shot cases do not chamber well.  The Lyman dies I have only size the cases about half way, and they still do not chamber well, so I am fairly sure the dies are the problem.  I am hoping the Lee carbides will size the cases fully.

I tried Cabela's first so I could use my Cabela bucks, they did not have it.  Also tried widener's, Midway, Midsouth, Graf and Sons, and a bunch more, all out of stock.  When I found some at F and M, i got them. 

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 08:34:15 AM »
Wow, I'm shocked that so many retailers are out of dies for such a common caliber. 

I agree, it seems that sizing is the problem.  Good luck.

Offline fastbike

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 11:19:46 AM »
Btw, even with the carbide dies you will have to lube the cases. The Carbine brass is thicker walled than a typical straight wall pistol brass. You will find this note in the Lee instructions. That may also be the reason the Lyman dies only size halfway.

The factory rounds fit fine.  The once shot cases do not chamber well.  The Lyman dies I have only size the cases about half way, and they still do not chamber well, so I am fairly sure the dies are the problem.  I am hoping the Lee carbides will size the cases fully.

I tried Cabela's first so I could use my Cabela bucks, they did not have it.  Also tried widener's, Midway, Midsouth, Graf and Sons, and a bunch more, all out of stock.  When I found some at F and M, i got them. 

Offline patw

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 10:45:07 AM »
Update.  Got an email from F and M, they are back ordered too.  I really wanted to reload, and it looked like I was stuck.  Then I got a brainf@rt.  I had planned on using the 32-20 cases because of the similarity of dimensions between the two, notably at the base, so....  Figured what the heck, put the 32-20 sizing die on the press, ran the 30 carbine cases through...... and it worked.  The cases now chamber without hanging up.  I can now reload for the Blackhawk and sit back and wait for the Lee dies. 

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 04:21:18 AM »
According to my load books, the dimentions for the bases and necks are very close, but how do you account for the shoulder in the brass?  Frankly, I'm suprized that it chambers and even if it does, there must be some gap between the brass and the chamber wall somewhere.  ???  Also, the shape of the case might account for varying overall volumes between the two, which translates to variences in pressures built up in the case.  What you think you're loading for an 30 carbine might not be that at all due to the case volume being higher or lower.

Pat, I suppose you can try what you want but typically accidents, in general, happen when we "rush" things (when driving cars, working with tools, etc).  The gun has been sitting around for HOW MANY years without use?  Don't you think it can sit an extra week or two ....even a month....before it gets loaded?

Maybe what you're thinking will work, I don't know.  If it does, I would think that that the load books would recommend or suggest it.  They often do suggest alternates when they can be used.  As a handloader, I tend to the side of caution and safety for myself and the people around me.  I would hope that the other people sitting or standing next to me at the range think this way as well. 

Offline patw

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Re: reloading 30 carbine
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 04:30:19 PM »
Blackhawker, you made an excellent point.  Got me worried about it so I went and checked the cases out.  All the case lengths are correct.  I filled cases from each die and weighed the contents, and the capacities are the same.  That surprised me somewhat because the Lyman dies give the finished round a slight hourglass appearance.   The only other noticeable difference is at the base.  The books say it should be .354.  Mine come out of the gun at .356 or .357.  The 32-20 dies have it down to .353.  I measured an unfired Remington round and it measured .352.  The way my schedule is going I will probably get the correct dies before I get a chance to go shoot, so that would take care of any potential concerns.

For whatever reason, I think the factory rounds are a little too hot for my gun, giving me extraction problems and problems with the brass.  I am hoping to get the reloading problems straight so I can go and enjoy shooting it.  I was going to start with 10.0 gr of 2400 with a 110 gr bullet. It is the minimum load in one manual, although some others go down to 8.9 gr.