.380 AMMO TEST

[IOWA DON]

I had my Walther PPK loaded with Remington Golden Saber (102-grain brass jacketed hollow points) and had a chance to finish of a spine-shot deer at close range. The deer was a whitetail doe weighing what I thought was about 130 pounds or more. The bullet went through the heart/lung area and was stopped by the skin on the far side. Weight of the recovered bullet was 102.2 grains which included a little deer tissue. It seemed to me that near 100 percent weight retention and enough expansion so the bullet would not exit would be ideal performance for a caliber intended for humans. I would expect about the same performance on a human as the deer's chest was about as thick as that of an average man.

[Mohawk]

  The only problem is that when you add clothes, arms, hands, and obesity things tend to change. I always like the Golden Sabers though. The bullet's drive band causes less friction on the lands which is less barrel wear.

[mcwoodduck]

My thinking exactly and that's why I keep them in my Sig P230 that is kept by the front door.
It would be interesting to see what the weight is after the deer tissue dries or if you soak the bullet and fet it fall off.

[IOWA DON]

I tried washed most of it off before weighing and suspect there is only a grain or two at the most. I think the driving band construction makes less friction and so a higher velocity is attainable than with a full diameter bullet. I would agree that clothes, fat etc. would probably have some effect on a low-velocity pistol bullet, especially if the hollowpoint gets filled up with clothing fiber. I target practice with handloaded Remington full-jacketed bullets but plan to continue carrying with the Golden Sabers. When I took the conceal/carry course the instructor stressed that hollow point bullets are the safe way to go because its not good policy to have a bullet exit a human you want to hit and then strike a human you do not want to hit. Also, a number of people told me that my Walter PPK is a nice gun, but that to bad it is chambered for such a puny cartridge. Anyway, I want to use ammo that does as good a job as possible because I like a gun small enough to actually carry and I really like the way it fits my hand and points naturally (for me anyway). Besides, I spent a fortune having Slide and Cylinder customize it.

[Brett]

That PPK loaded with Golden Sabers or Silvertips will do you just fine.  I bet the knuckle draggers who insist that you have to have a service sized .40cal or larger leave their piece at home 90% of the time.

[Mohawk]

  Didn't say the .380 was ineffective. Just saying that don't expect equal, consistant performance, in a messy situation as you might receive on a deer, with any handgun caliber. Seen enough of both to know there is a BIG difference.  A .380 is about like a .38, with the exeption that heavier loads are available for the latter. And I would be hesitant to compare anatomy structures between an attacking felon and deer. Measurements are one thing, but so are tissue and bone densities, muscle, fat, and angles. My girlfriend's Rotweiller is 90 lbs but it aint nothing like a deer.

[IOWA DON]

MOHAWK - I will have to agree there are differences. Where this bullet entered the deer there were virtually no muscles between the ribs and skin, and only small muscles between the ribs. Even on my almost 60-year-old chest the muscles are at least an inch thick covered with a half-inch of fat. I suspect that would take a significant amount of energy out of the bullet. A 275-pound escaped convict who has had nothing to do except work out might have more than a couple inches of chest muscle and may also be high on dope. I've shot a lot of deer and have noticed that large bucks seem to run a lot farther than the much smaller does when shot with the same guns. I guess the same would be true for humans. I guess there might be a good reason to shoot two or three times if being attacked by a really big guy with lots of muscle. - DON

[mcwoodduck]

Yep,
Don,
That's why they put the little button on the left side of the frame.  shoot till he stops or the gun needs to have the button pushed and a new mag inserted so you can shoot more.   

[slim rem 7]

 gotta jump in here.. in winter i always switch to flat nosed rnd..heavy coates an the layered clothing of winter ,,definitly call for more penetration ,,which would translate in to less damage to bad guy . . besides the flat nosed + p rnd is damaging enough as it is..now in summer i sometimes switch to my protection hollow point in the .380.. but im not sure its more damaging than a good flat point..
 the 38 carries 158 grn swc,most all the time..mean rnd

[1marty]

Here are some actual test results:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm

[slim rem 7]

 im missing something for sure..stats show more penetration thru clothes than with none.. like i say im just missing something ..
not unusual.. gotta go to work the graveyrd ,yall sleep good..

[Mikey]

Slim - you're not missing anything.  The only slug that failed to penetrate more in clothed gelatin than bare gelatin was the Golden Sabre and that slug expanded more in bare gelatin than clothed gelatin.

The others, being hollow points of possible lesser construction penetrated more in clothed gelatin than in bare gelatin.  I would surmise the reason for this is that the hollow-points plugged and the bullet acted more like a fmj.  You will also note the expansion in clothed gelatin is less than in bare gelatin and that is a secondary result of hollow point expansion failure. 

You also said that you switch loads in Winter and Summer and that a flat nosed penetrates better but may damage less.  I'm not so sure buddy.  Just about the only development that ever improved the effect of a round nose bullet was when Elmer Keith designed the semi-wadcutter (if it was him, but I think it was).  Flat nosed or swcs create significant damage and penetrate further than other designs. 

When you look at the 380, the 45acp, the 9mm, the 38 spl you will see that the only thing that improved the performance of those calibers was going to a Keith style swc - before someone started saying that we needed expanding hps or soft nosed slugs. 

I still have a old (think it is) RCBS mold for the 380 that is a Keith style swc.  Don't know where I got it, maybe from a junk box, but when cast hard those little suckers shoot accurately and hit hard.  If I stuff a 158 gn swc (properly sized) into a 9mm they function just like a 38 Spl with a 158 gn swc and the same for a 38 Super except they are closer to 357 levels.  If I stuff a 230 - 240 gn swc into a 45acp the results are improved performance.

I would rather one square hole t&t that causes leakage at both ends than put the kind of faith into a expanding 'causes fatal wounds' bullet that killed the federal boys in Miami.  I will wager that if that federal agent had been carrying plain hardball and had hit that bad guy the same number of times (3 I believe) the fight would have been over without those federal agents dying while waiting for those 'causes fatal wounds' bullets to take effect.  Most any bullet will cause a fatal wound but the amount of time it takes for that to happen is questionable, if ya know what I mean..... Mikey.

[coyotejoe]

  While the 9mm HP ammo gets a lot of negative attention in regards to that Miami firefight, people seem to ignore the fact that both bad guys took multiple hits from .38 special +P 158 grain SWC and 12 gauge 00 buck. Those guys were just a couple of tough customers who continued to fight after sustaining multiple serious wounds. The FBI agents were also courageous and determined and also took the fight to the goons after being wounded. There is no criticizing their actions during the fight. On the other hand, there actions leading to the fight were seriously flawed in many respects. If they had employed correct procedures there may not have been a fight at all and if there were the agents would have been in control of the situation. That was what really got them killed, poor procedure in the initial stop, creating a situation which they could not control. There is no reason to believe that different ammunition would have saved them, it was just easier to scapegoat the 9mm than to lay the blame on the agents own actions and the agency's poor training.

[Mikey]

joe - correct me if I am wrong but I believe the principal bad guy shooter took three kill zone 9mm Silvertips to the chest and continued to take down the federal agents.  I also understand that only one bad guy could function as it is suspected that the driver had been blinded and deafened by the other guy's mini-14 going off in his face and he was unable to function and was still sitting behind the wheel when a fbi agent fired his snubnose 38 with 158 gn swcs point blank into his head.  The pricipal bad guy had been wounded at least 3 times and had finally exhausted his ammo and went back to the car for more when he too was shot at near point blank range by the same agent who had shot the driver. 

The issue with the silvertips is that they failed to create the immediately fatal wounds necessary to eliminate the threat.  They failed to penetrated the chest and allow the leakage on both ends that would have collapsed the shooter's lungs and stopped him there. 

Many hunters prefer hard cast flat nosed slugs when hunting, especially if they are hunting dangerous game animals and they prefer those slugs to shoot through and through and leave the critter busted up and leaking out at both ends; that causes rapid demise.  This is why we do not usually advocate hollow points or soft nosed slugs for handgun hunting.  I consider those Miami criminals to be in the same category as dangerous game - you need to shoot through them and leave them busted up and leaking at both holes if you want to win.  jmtcw.  Mikey.

[mcwoodduck]

Agreed, but the down side to having through and through holes in criminals is where si the slug going once it leaves and in what direction.  There is a big differance in hunting and self defence.  Self defence rarely takes place in open terrain when there is not going to be a worry of where that slug is going to go.  When I first had my CCW in VA I would not carry it till I got good with my P230.  I know I would not have a mental problem with shooting a bad guy but I do not think I could handle hitting and innocent person behind the bad guy.  hollow points that open up and do not leave the bad guy are perfect for me.
There are three ways to put some one down quickly.  1, deprime the pump.  Rapid blood pressure loss will putthe assailant on the ground.
2, major bone breaking like the spine or hip will not allow assailant to stand. 3 rd is the interupt the electrcal impulses in the nervious system.  Spine or brain hit.
Other than that there are Loss of blood, and drowning that are causes of gun shot death both result in depriving the brain of O2.

[The Pistoleer]

Hornady's new Critical Defense ammunition might solve the problem of the HP becoming plugged with fabric.  They filled the hollow with what they call a "flex tip" which apparently helps open up the bullet while keeping fabric out.  It comes in 380, 38 spl, 38+P and 9mm.  I am going to give the 38s a try in my S&W snubbies.

Pete

[ice]

The Golden Saber in 380 is a popular round.
I`ve seen test where they did good and test where they did fair.
I carry the 380 alot.
For me personally, I have more faith in hard ball ammo. If a BG is approaching intent on doing me or mine serious harm, he gets one to the chest, and if he doesn`t stop the aggression, then one to the face.
I have done test with 380 hard ball ammo. You would be surprised how much that little bullet will penetrate, clothes or no clothes.