Author Topic: Cannons Through the Keyhole  (Read 949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Cannons Through the Keyhole
« on: April 17, 2009, 05:05:07 PM »
     On our latest research trip this past fall we zoomed out to the Second Annual New River Valley Shoot in Floyd, VA to see Tim and Wayne then over to Virginia Beach, VA to say Hi to Allen, KABAR2, then we went through Petersburg, VA and Richmond, VA then zoomed North to Boston, MA to see the other deck of the USS Constitution which was closed last year and back, slowly, exploring thoroughly along the coast to NYC and Pennsylvania and Dominick's shop, then up to Erie, NY through Corning, then home to Colorado.  So knowing all that:

             Where was the posted photo taken and what is it?  Hint:  it's near a big body of water and the photo was taken from the roof of a well known Museum through one of those binocular telescopes that you see at most National Monuments.




BIG CLUE:  The Museum mentioned is all about the creatures from which these were extracted.



Regards,

T & M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 06:38:10 AM »
Well I had a feeling it was Boston...... so I investigated light houses since there is a small one in the photo.......
your next clue led me to the New Bedford Whaling Museum and an artifact search to this.......


http://www.whalingmuseum.org/newbedcoll/default.asp?IDCFile=detailm.idc,SPECIFIC=124930,DATABASE=44904500,


Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Ex 49'er

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1975
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 07:25:38 AM »
Across the bay from the Whaling Museum is Fort Phoenix. Farther south is Fort Rodman.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 07:47:22 AM »
Yeah that was one of the other links I found....

http://www.forttaber.org/home.shtml
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 07:54:04 AM »
     KABAR2 and Ex49'er,   Both of you are very sharp on a cold, snowy Colorado morning!  Which fort is it and what cannon do they have there?  Only ONE of these two has ANY artillery, by the way.  That 2 mile long brown stripe is a Hurricane Barrier.  Take a look from above via   www.terraserver.com        Wikipedia ain't bad on this one either, better than their usual 80 to 85% correct statements.

Great start!

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Ex 49'er

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1975
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 08:34:43 AM »
Only Fort Phoenix has cannons. Fort Rodman/Taber is just a fort.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2009, 08:39:18 AM »
     
Only Fort Phoenix has cannons. Fort Rodman/Taber is just a fort.

     True and after you check all 5 or 6 Ft. Phoenix sites, you will tell us what we all need to hear.  What are those artillery pieces and how many are there?

Press on,

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Ex 49'er

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1975
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 09:38:37 AM »
5 - 24pdr.'s.  Originally there were 8.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 11:31:46 AM »
      Thank you sir!  Excellent answer, and here are a few photos of these guns. They are all dated 1828, but only 4 of 5 are rifled.  That's right, more early war, 48 pdr., conversion rifles.  There is also a small, very corroded Rev. War piece there as well.

And we thought this was going to be a 2 or 3 day puzzler; you guys are getting very good at this type of research.

An afternoon salute to you, Ex49'er!

Tracy and Mike


Taken from the Hurricane Barrier, this shot shows all 5 24pdrs.




We rarely leave an interesting location before sunset; no exception here.




The 24 pdr smoothbore and 3 of 4 of the 48 pdr. conversion rifles on Wood, Seacoast, Front Pintle, Barbette Carriages at Ft. Phoenix.



James System rifling here, very similar to Parrott rifling, but no gain twist.  Gen. Quincy Gilmore used some of this size and type rifled guns in his investment of Ft. Pulaski, Georgia in 1862.




This smoothbore cannon from 1777 was brought here after being captured in the Bahamas from a British ship and then retaken nearby when the British burned New Bedford and then taken back, but minus the trunnions which were hammered off while in British hands.  Bore is blocked, so we can't tell what the bore size is.




Found in the attic of the New Bedford Whaling Museum.  Info anybody?




And another one, sorry these aren't better pics, but I was over the velvet ropes into some roped off area, so had to be quick.




Finally, some really nice craftsmanship in quartersawn white oak.  This is just a landing at the top of several steps leading to the dock.  The ship was a 4/5 scale fully rigged whaling ship INSIDE!! the museum with big copper rendering pots and all the other specialized equipment including a complete collection of harpoons as well.

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 05:26:29 AM »
I have one identical in appearance (don't know how big the one you found was) to the iron piece with "PROVED" cast into the barrel.  Since now thanks to Seacoast, two of these are known, it may be worth starting a new thread about this peculiar type of cannon.  I'll take some pix, measure it, and do that soon.

Offline Ex 49'er

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1975
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 07:57:41 AM »
Here is info on the Rev. War cannon at Fort Phoenix:  http://www.millicentlibrary.org/cochran/page6.html
and
info on Fort Phoenix:  http://fort-phoenix.blogspot.com/

MIke & Tracy: many thanks for posting this topic.

Mark
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 08:14:55 AM »
If anyone has more photos of the "British" cannon, particularly from the top, I'd like to see 'em.  The profile of that gun just doesn't look like a British naval gun of the period.  It looks like there's a coat of arms or something cast in relief over the trunnions and that may answer the questions.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 06:27:50 PM »
     Cannonmn,   Small world, eh?  We look forward to your posting pics and info on your "PROVED" marked cannon.  To help you compare the basic dimensions of the two I will give you a bit of pertinent information here.  The width of the left shoe in the almost 12 o'clock view pic of that cannon was measured, and the width of the uppermost stitching, (upside down "U" shape), is 2.720" where the stitching meets the bottom of the photo.  John, you know what you can do with this info. if you want cannon dims.  Only Two of these; who would have guessed? 

     Also, we found a few more pics of that "Rev. War" gun at Fort Phoenix including a top view of the trunnion area that you asked about.  glad to help out.  Just let us all know if you find something interesting about either cannon.  Bore size is unknown on both, but dimensions are to be had with padlocks and shoes in the photos.

     Mark,   We didn't know what this thread would bring, but we had fun researching the topic just as much as you did.  Thanks for posting that extra info; the second one we found too, but not the first, which gives some very nice detail about this Fort.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike



















Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 11:17:29 PM »
 




 Interesting. They cast in the proof mark (before the bbl was ever fired).  ???

  Edit - Oops... Maybe that's a positive-relief stamp...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 12:08:03 AM »
Thanks for the photos of the old Brit gun.  I think I was expecting the typical 18th C. Brit naval gun, but this one appears to be a much older "Rose and Crown" gun from the 17th C.; the circular logo looks familiar.  Maybe Mr. Smith will show up again and help us out with that one.  There aren't too many of those very old Brit guns in this country.  There were a number on loan from England to Colonial Williamsburg (Williamsburg VA, USA), which were kept at the magazine.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2009, 12:12:32 AM »
Quote
They cast in the proof mark (before the bbl was ever fired). 

I think the idea was that they'd cast all the guns that way, and if one failed proof they'd break it up if it hadn't disintegrated sufficiently when it failed proof. 

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2009, 12:53:52 AM »
I think that the seal you are seeing on the 18th C cannon is  the Royal Ordnance knot or seal,





Here is a modern version of the same knot. which is missing the tail of the belt.


Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2009, 03:34:18 AM »
Allen, good guess but I think we're both wrong.  Here's a typical Rose and Crown on a very old Brit gun at Princeton U., notice it is on the breech, the only place you will find the Royal cypher on British guns.

http://www.princeton.edu/paw/columns/rally_round/rrc112107.html

The garter you are talking about, I've only seen on British bronze field guns and howitzers.  The garter, within which is the  initial of the then-current Master of Ordnance, seems to be found only on the chase.

Here's our problem with the gun shown.  The design, whatever it is, is located over the trunnions, so that leaves out a royal cypher or the MGO garter.

The broad arrow is a sure indication the gun was British Crown property, but that could have been put on a captured gun as well, although only on rare occasions from what I've seen.

I'm back to square one on this thing.  Where's Bob Smith?

Anyone else?

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Cannons Through the Keyhole
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2009, 04:29:41 AM »
Here's a pic from Howard Blackmore, THE ARMOURIES OF THE TOWER OF LONDON, HMSO, London, 1976,



This is a small bronze gun, not a large iron one, but it shows one instance in which the Rose and Crown cypher was placed over the trunnions .