Enfield questions

[horseman308]

I was thinking of trying to pick up an Enfield as a general all-around kind of rifle: hunting, plinking, occasional military matches (not serious competition), maybe silhouettes. I don't know much at all about them - never fired one and only handled one once or twice. I see that some of them still seem to be relatively inexpensive - $250ish.

What kind of accuracy could one reasonably expect?
What "version" would you recommend?
I saw that some people have converted theirs from .303 British to .308 - I assume .308win/7.62 NATO. Is that correct? Is it a good idea, expensive, worth it, etc?
What's the best place to get ammo, especially if I used the regular .303?
Can I use any commercially made ammo or does it have to be milspec?

Where would be the best place to look for one? I see them on gunbroker.com but everything always seems overpriced there. It doesn't need to be collector grade or anything, but I'd certainly want one in good enough condition to be reliable and serviceable without any major work right off the bat.

Any ideas or advice on picking one up would be really appreciated. Thanks!

[spruce]

I'm not a .303 expert, but I've owned a few (still have one) and can tell you they are fun to shoot and are an effective deer/bear class hunting rifle.
In my experience run of the mill accuracy is around 3"-4" at 100 yds, with some examples being slightly better or worse.

There are basically 3 versions of the .303 chambered rifles - the No.1 MkIII (open sights), the No.4MkI (peep sight) and the No.5 "Jungle carbine".  The No.5 is normally not as accurate as the others and due to muzzle blast and recoil is not nearly as much fun to shoot.
The .308 version is the No. 2A and it is not actually a conversion, but was built specifically to handle the pressures of 7.62 NATO/.308.  It resembles the No.1 in that it has open sights.

Any commercial .303 British ammo will work fine.  I use Remington 180 gr round nose core-lokt for deer in mine, but there are several other brands/loads that I'm sure would work equally well.  The mil-surp ammo (when you can find it) is almost all primed with corrosive primers and will require you thoroughly scrup down the rifle and bore after each shooting session (just like you would if using black powder or Pyrodex).

As far as places to look, you could check some of the surplus arms dealers, ask your friendly local gun shop, check at a few gun shows, etc.

I would suggest you run a search on 303british and one on SMLE - you'll get several pages of hits with info you can study.  Good luck!

[Old Fart]

You might keep an eye on http://forums.gunboards.com/index.php & http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/.
I've seen some on a regular basis there. Then there are a couple of good forums on both in regards to these rifles.

OF

[kiddekop]

the only problems we ever saw  were very weak  magazine springs which made feeding a problem in rapid fire during qualifying matches for a garand.We solved their problems by loaning them rifles to finish their qualifying.

[mrbigtexan]

i always had 3'' to 4'' groups in mine until i tried prvi partisan 180 gr. ammo. it cost 14.00 a box off gunbroker. it now shoots 1'' groups. truly unbelievable!! mine is no4 mk1

[Mikey]

Horseman:  try and find yourself a No.4 Mk1, the last full size British 303 battle rifle.  The best ones are US made by Stevens or Savage (can't remember which one) because they never went to war and were never used in battle.  Even if one of those has been stored for the last half century it is still brand spankin' new and worth pretty much whatever you pay for it.

Accuracy with one of those should be in the 2"@100m range with the open sights, or better if your eyes are better.  If you scope it you may drop your groups to under 1"@100m. 

Version - as specified above.

Conversion - don't bother.  The 308 hsa nothing over the 303.  The Brits finally went to the 308 solely on accounta it was a NATO baby, and nothing else.  The 303 British used to outshoot the 30-06 on the 1K meter range at the Wimbleton Cup Matches until we developed the 190 gn boattail spire point for our 30 bore rifles. 

I think the best place to get ammo is through our sponsors (MidSouth) or through other major distributors.  I recommend either the Sellier and Bellot or the PRVI ammo.  Both are reloadable and are made to mil-spec.  However, if you can locate any Greek or Portugese made 303 British I would get it. 

One thing you really need to remember about the 303 Brit, especially if you reload, is that the success of this battle rifle was based on its ability to function in muddy trench warfare environments - this means there is some tolerance in the chambers which could lead to short case lives if you reload, and many who reload for the 303 Brit strongly recommend neck sizing only. 

Oh yeah - the standard 303 British load was a .311 177 gn slug (or 180 or 174, whatever) at 2540'/sec.  The S&B and PRVI stuff is loaded accordingly.  Most US made ammo is loaded down for liability purposes.  Many load manuals I have show the max velocity of the 303 Brit with the 174-180 gn slug at 2440'/sec. 

Now, here's a bit of info for ya.  The accuracy load that I use for the 303 is a 180 gn loaded to 2540'/sec.  The sniper/match/target loads that I used to use for the 308 is a 174 gn slug at 2550'/sec.  If I have a 303 Brit I sure ain't gonna bother with a 308............

Check the latest Shotgun News for the availability of the 303s.  HTH. 

[horseman308]

Thanks Mickey:
That's exactly the kind of information I need. I appreciate it very much.

[jlwilliams]

  They are a good all around rifle.  I would second the recomendation for a Savage Mk4No1.  Great gun.  The Mk4No1 was also made in Long branch, Canada and those are excellent as well.

  About the 3.8 conversions.  Many of the 308s are guns made in Ishapore, India.  While they are not bad shooters, the parts interchangability with regular military surplus parts is hit and miss, so your suply of spare parts is limited.  Not that you will need anything more than a firing pin and a mag or two, but it's a consideration.  The Ishapore rifles are OK, but generally not considered to be as good as the UK, Canadian or US made guns.  I would also advise against getting ito having one converted to 308.  The cost would add quite a bit to the overall cost of the gun, to the point where you will have been better off buying a brand new 308 from Remington.  Besides, 303 is a good round and is available.

  You may also want to stear clear of jungle carbine conversions.  I don't know the specifics but I understand that some old rifles were converted to the jungle carbine configuration and that some of these conversions were not as good as others.  It seems that they removed some material from the receiver and that effected acuracy by allowing the reciever to flex too much.  A proper jungle carbine is a great little bolt action gun, but I'd want to research it first to make sure to get a good one.

  There are plenty of Enfields out there for sale.  Have you tried making a day of going to the gun stores in your area looking for them?  Some telephone time followed by a drive around may be a good afternoon.

[RaySendero]

I was thinking of trying to pick up an Enfield as a general all-around kind of rifle: hunting, plinking, occasional military matches (not serious competition), maybe silhouettes. I don't know much at all about them - never fired one and only handled one once or twice. I see that some of them still seem to be relatively inexpensive - $250ish.

What kind of accuracy could one reasonably expect?
What "version" would you recommend?
I saw that some people have converted theirs from .303 British to .308 - I assume .308win/7.62 NATO. Is that correct? Is it a good idea, expensive, worth it, etc?
What's the best place to get ammo, especially if I used the regular .303?
Can I use any commercially made ammo or does it have to be milspec?

Where would be the best place to look for one? I see them on gunbroker.com but everything always seems overpriced there. It doesn't need to be collector grade or anything, but I'd certainly want one in good enough condition to be reliable and serviceable without any major work right off the bat.

Any ideas or advice on picking one up would be really appreciated. Thanks!

horseman,

Good choice for all around rifle.  I picked this one as my knock-around truck rifle:



It had been sporterized back in the 60s - I picked it up 2 yrs ago.  It's an No.4 MK1*.  I just cleaned it up and replaced/adjusted the front sight to be on at 50 yards.  Didn't want a scope on it bouncing around in the truck so kept the peep/lob sight.  As for ammo I use S&B's 180 FMC.

[fastbike]

Ray,

FWIW, did you know that some of the "sporterized" Enfields were converted at the (a) factory and sent to Canadian Provincial Fish and Game Departments?

You can also trace the serial number through various deployments.

[RaySendero]

Ray,

FWIW, did you know that some of the "sporterized" Enfields were converted at the (a) factory and sent to Canadian Provincial Fish and Game Departments?

You can also trace the serial number through various deployments.

fast,

First I've ever heard of that!

How/where would I start such a trace?

[mannyrock]

Horseman,

   The Number 4, Mark I, is definitely the one you want.  But, remember, the peep sights on these were made to hit a man at 100 yard, not a rabbit.  So, even on their closest setting, they may shoot 10 to 12 inches high at 100 yards.  So, be prepared to have to replace the front sight with a taller one.

   I'll leave it to the experts here to advise what the best front sight replacement would be, and where to get one.

   Also, DITTO:Stay away from the Jungle Carbines, either original or converted. The muzzle blast and noise is horrendous!  (Also, the original Jungle Carbines had special "cuts" in the recievers to make them lighter, called lightering cuts.  Unfortunately, these made the receivers too springy, and gave rise to the problem of the "wandering zero".  I.e., no matter how many times you sighted it in, the point of zero would wander. The Jungle Carbines were introduced at the very end of WWII, and the complaints started pouring in, and I think their production ceased very soon afterwards.)

Best Regards,  Mannyrock

[S.S.]

Find a p14 if you want the most accurate. There were rumors that it was fragile
but these were unfounded. It is however very unweildy with a bayonet attached.
Our own mdl.1917 was based on it. Almost an exact copy.
Of all the rifles I have had (both old and new) this is by far the most accurate.
My jungle carbine has no cuts?

[Victor3]

Also, the original Jungle Carbines had special "cuts" in the recievers to make them lighter, called lightering cuts.  Unfortunately, these made the receivers too springy, and gave rise to the problem of the "wandering zero".  I.e., no matter how many times you sighted it in, the point of zero would wander.

Best Regards,  Mannyrock

 The JC's also have a light, fluted bbl.

 As far as the wandering zero goes, I think mine is caused more by the flinch I've developed while shooting it; the recoil seems about 2x that of my #4. The tiny, flat and hard rubber 'recoil pad' makes it feel even worse than the curved brass butt plate on the full-size rifles...

[fastbike]

I'm trying to remember the websites. One of my sons has a No1 MkIII* made in 1917 at the Enfield factory. He was able to trace the serial number through the first world world with a British unit to the second world war with a Canadian unit. We couldn't track after that, but the disk in the stock was replaced with a 1955 Canadian quarter. I had always thought that whoever had sporterized the gun had done an extremely good job and then on one of the .303 sites stumbled across the mention that some guns were sporterized for the Canadian government. BTW, as near as I can tell his gun looks identical to your picture. Sorry I can'tbe more help. Search Enfield serial number.

Ray,

FWIW, did you know that some of the "sporterized" Enfields were converted at the (a) factory and sent to Canadian Provincial Fish and Game Departments?

You can also trace the serial number through various deployments.

fast,

First I've ever heard of that!

How/where would I start such a trace?

[gstewart44]

I have a p14 and a No4 Mk1 and the p14 is way more accurate.   I get 1 1/2" groups all day long with the p14 and my No4 will only shoot 3-4" on a good day.    But the No4 is a lot more fun to shoot.   For a real rush try to do the "Mad Minute".  the original WWI goal was 15 aimed shots at a 300yd target in 60 seconds.   I use a 100 yd range and try to do 20 rounds (4 stripper clips) in the minute.   It's a rush. 

[Gerry N.]

If your'e only interested in a shooter and not a collector, there are uncountable thousands of what I call "Semi Sporters" around.  These have the fore end cut back, the forward metal removed, and maybe the butt shortened and a recoil pad installed.   If you can find one of these made by Savage or Long Branch and it's got a good bore, you hit the el-cheapo military surplus jackpot.  If the barrel's too long for you, simply cut the barrel, re-crown it and put on a sight ramp and new blade.  A decent Savage or LB #4 Sporter shouldn't cost over $200.  Any more than that and you're being taken for a ride.  I'd avoid the #1's, but that's just me.  Actually any #4 with a decent barrel will make a good all around rifle.

Enfield chambers are bloody huge.  The Brits did not intend to reload so they cut the chambers to feed reliably with ammo encrusted with blood, mud, guts and gore.   Simply neck size your brass and it will last as long as any other.  Full length size and two firings are average.

I have no idea where some people got the idea that corrosive priming was the cyanide of rifles.  Simply clean normally and there's no problem.  I was given over 1500 rounds of S. African ammo dated 1943 because it's cordite and corrosive.  It is some of the most accurate milsurp ammo I have ever shot.  Just for sh*ts and giggles,  I pulled the bullets on 50 rds, replacing them with 150gr. Hornadys.  I can still shoot 'em into a 6" bull at 100Yds.  Darn good deer or elk load.

The first time I compared  an unfired .303 round to a fired one I thought they were different cartridges.  It doesn't affect pressures because the .303 headspaces on the rim.

Gerry N.

[silver surfer]

I have a 1952 #4 Mk2 that is the cats meow.  My wife bought it for me 14 years ago as a Christmas present and I have been a happier man ever since.

  I reload my own, the data that I use is the max load according to Accurate Powder with Speer 180 grn round nose.  The longest shot I have taken was 473 paces at a big Virginia Doe, D.O.A. the best shot I have ever taken was a turkey.  I clipped its comb at 320 yards then cut its head off at 278 measured yards. 

  With just a little experimentation, which is pretty fun on its own, you can turn these warhorses into some serious hardware.  It's a fallacy to beleive that newer is better.  Newer is more new, period.  The quality and materials that went into these older rifles and shotguns is heads and shoulders above the mass produced/profit margin soulless stuff of today. 

  Good luck, and good shooting.