.22-250 case separations HELP!

[rich337]

Hi Handi masters, I'm new to handis and kinda new to reloading too.  I've been trying to find an accurate load for my ultra .22-250 that I had purchased and fitted through H&R.  I noticed that I couldn't get anything to group or even stabilize until I used 40gr Noslers and reloader 15 to the tune of ~4030fps.  Suddenly I was shooting 1/2 inch groups.  Awesome! but then I had a case separate, and then the next day another.  It happens on the second or third firing of virgin brass or factory ammo with virgin brass.  I've done much reading into the subject, and knew about headspace being the usual culprit.  The virgin brass loads flush with the back of the barrel.  I fire the load then after removing the case, I can see a stress line about a half inch from the bottom of the case, and it is now too long to close the action again.  I reset my full length sizer die so that it now sticks out of the rear a few thousanths, but the action can close.  Then comes the separations.  BTW It is happening with winchester and remington brass.  I feel that it is not a brass issue though.  It's either my inexperience or my barrel.

Is my load too ambitiously hot?  (sorry I'm not at home and forgot how many grains of powder I think it is 37.3 gr)
Do I have a bad chamber?
What am I forgetting?

I appreciate your time
 

[trotterlg]

I think that is sort of a common problem with the break open type action.  When the rifle fires the frame flexes some allowing the brass to grow longer, then the frame snaps back but the damage has been done to the brass.  I had the same problem with a .243 with case seperations.  I don't know if there is a solution other than backing down on the load.  When I loaded for a 22-250, 40gr bullets would run 4,300 plus with a hot load near 4,450, however that was in a bolt rifle.  Larry

[stimpylu32]

Been having the same problem with my 22-250 , not sure what to tell you yet , BUT - I WILL figger it out , barrel shoots too well to let it stop me . 

stimpy

PS - When I find whats wrong , I'll let you know what I find , I plan to work with it this weekend .

[Bigeasy]

Rich-

I don't have a lot of experience with single shot break opens, but a few things come to mind-

1)  If you think your chamber may be out of spec, have a gunsmith make a chamber cast, and check the dimensions.

2)  Flex may be an issue, but then this type rifle is chambered for other rounds with a lot more back thrust without obvious problems, so....

3)  You are using a good reloading manual, right?   Try several different starting / mid level loads, see if the problem remains.  Over 4000fps with a 40grn is a max load in the 22/250.  Try 3800fps with the same bullet, around 3500 with a 55 grn bullet.  Experiment til you find an accurate load.  Max velocity isn't everything..

4)  Try neck sizing only.  If you have an oversize chamber, and you full length resize, you are working the brass a lot, and shortening case life.  When you re-size, screw your sizing die til the base touches the shell holder, then un-screw about 1/2 a turn.  The object is to size the case enough so the neck is re-sized to properly hold a bullet, but not push the case shoulder back.  size it just enough so you can chamber the loaded round, and close the action.  This will minimize case stretch / failure.  Combine this with a load a few degrees below max, and you should do all right.

Larry

[PHATINJUN]

I don't think it's a max velocity problem . I would think your load would be about a little over midrange at just over 4000fps. the 4300+ may be max but you should also be able to get right at 4000 easy with 52 to 55gr bullets. I would venture to guess it has more to do with the long throat. Sounds like Stimpy is having the same issue he'll help ya wring it out. kurt

[trotterlg]

I think you will find the 22-250 produces more breach thrust than any other H&R chambering.  It has the large size brass and a 65,000 PSI operating pressure, this is more than a Swift, 308 or a 30-06.  Larry

[stimpylu32]

My last trip to the range I lost 7 cases out of 40 due to either part or full case head seperation , this was only the 2nd loading for 1/2 of these and 3rd loading on the other 1/2 , all were FL sized and running in the 3800 FPS range .

One thing that I might point out is that they were fired in a Rem bolt gun before , not my Handi , which may lead me to a chamber issue with the bolt gun causing the cases to fail early . 

I'm going to try taking the necks up to 6mm and then back down to .224 with a false shoulder just to see if it is truely a headspace problem or a chamber dia. problem . 

stimpy

[NFG]

I think you have at least a minimum of two or three problems going on at the same time...you are resizing and pushing the shoulder back too far which creates excess headspace, the chamber may be long to begin with, plus the load maybe excessive for the wiggley, flexi-Handi.

What you are doing by creating a false shoulder is good...using "used" brass may or may not be the problem except if it was ruined in the original chamber...a lot of people just follow the directions on the can...works OK for a SAAMI chamber and brass but is death on brass if something is WAY out of whack and Handi's are known(at least to me) for having out of whack chambers.

My suggestion would be to start with new brass...drop one in the chamber and you can readily see if the chamber is too deep.  If so fireform with 10 gr or so of Bullseye and cornmeal...that will iron out the case and fit it to the chamber...THEN do some measuring...I keep telling people to by a set of Stoney headspace guages...that way you can measure the shoulder before and after firing, sizing etc and KNOW, without guessing, the amount of shoulder setback...THEN buy a set of Redding competition shell holders so you can set the sizing die to within 0.002" of the correct headspace.

I guarantee by doing those two things you will put life back into your cases.

Also stay away from hot loads...by dropping your load pressure 10% you only loose 5% velocity and your brass will last 100% longer and probably get 100% better accuracy...

One thing more...DON'T partial resize...people do it all the time...everytime I say that I get arguments galore, but I know for a fact and through experiments that you need to be sure your sizer contacts the ram face WITHOUT any breakover...I have proven it several times...to myself and a few others...doing so will keep your brass STRAIGHT...partial resizing will get your runout chasing it's tail...

Handi's have several built in problems that need to be address before doing too much load testing...Most come with gapitis...you need to shim up to as close to zero headspace as possible...the don't have really good chambers - cut off center, oversize or crooked, cut too deep, too long throats or not long enough...so you have to fit your sizing die to the chamber...and because of the design they are flexible...you can help that by bedding the chamber to the frame...You can make the Handi really talk with just a bit of work and keeping the pressures reasonable, otherwise you are whizzing in the wind and chasing your tail.

A sure sign of headspace problems or hot loads in a Contender/Encore is short case life and I've been shooting T/C's for a good 35 years...you can't load either break actions to the same pressures as a bolt gun without locking up or killing cases.  The velo you say you're at is high for a bolt gun...and the 22-250 is known for stretching cases...I stay around 3900 with a 40 gr Hornady V_max or Nosler in my 22-250 bolt guns.

Hope this helps...

Luck on your quest.

[rich337]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.  NFG, When you say shim it to near 0 headspace, where would you place the shim?  Also how do I bed the chamber to the frame?  I've been researching this site (the ultimate NEF info spot) avidly for a while now, and I've never heard of these techniques.  I like the idea of fireforming with cornmeal.  I've never thought of trying that with this barrel.  Stimpy, I sure hope you can unlock this mystery for us both.  This barrel is accurate, I just need for it to stop cutting cases in half.

rich 

[trotterlg]

These rifles are not built for the reloaders and high volume shooters, they are made for the person who walks into a Walmart and needs a rifle to go hunting with his brother in law once in his life time, they are simple, functional and cheap to buy.  The people here represent about 1/10th of one percent of the H&R owners, the others don't know what a case seperation is and would not know a reloading press if they tripped over it.  These shortcomings are the nature of the beast, they are not the same as a bolt gun and you should not expect the same level of performance from one.  They are a cheap and fun rifle to shoot and play with, you can modify them and get different barrels, but they still remain a hobby rifle.  I have quite a few, and have made up barrels for a lot more in some strange chamberings, but they still remain, simple, cheap and not up to the abilities of a bolt gun, so don't expect the same level of performance from one.  One good thing is that if you really get into these fun little rifles you will be in the top 1/10th percent of the owners and associate with a really nice group of people here, plus, you may even get one to shoot!  Larry

[PHATINJUN]

What would a 22-250 AE or AI chamber do for this problem??? Kurt

[NFG]

Follow the sticky on barrel swapping/accurizing....the shim goes between the hinge pin and the barrel lug cut out...it moves the barrel toward the frame face and closes up the gapitis...

A couple of other things you might try or consider...forgot to add these thoughts in last post.

First bed the barrel to the receiver...it helps immensly in the accruacy department...takes all of one day to do...the procedure is in the stickys also.

Use a 63 gr Sierra Semi-pointed bullet...use it to measure the chamber depth...drop it in the chamber...tap it slightly to be sure it is in the lands...use a depth mic, caliper, piece of brass rod...anything to get a fairly accurate measurement OR slip a brass or cleaning rod down the barrel with the action closed and cocked(otherwise you will be measuring from the tip of the firing pin)...THEN drop the bullet into the chamber, tap it, and measure with the same rod...the distance between the two marks is the COAL of a loaded round with THAT bullet...each bullet is different...measur from the muzzle side of the marks...I use a piece of tape sometimes.. and measure from the lowest point on each tape piece.  You can use other bullets but I've found over the years that bullet shoots very well plus it is big enough for up to deer size game and long enough to work in overly long throated rifle...I had a 220 Swift that wouldn't shoot any other bullet into quarte inch groups...it would shoot ANY bullet into 3/4" but only the 63 Sierra Semi into bug holes...a 70 gr Speer SSSP or Win 64 SPPP will also work...but the other long bullets won't because of the Handi twist.

THEN...seat the same bullet to slightly longer than the measured length...0.010"-0.02" or so...use this as a reference dummy...NOW...load up a beginning load in the slower burning powder range for that weight bullet, follow the manuals...seat the bullet to that COAL, and shoot it...a beginning load and stuffed into the lands 10 or 20 thou won't cause any pressure problems unless you try it with some too fast pistol powder.  

What you are doing is keeping the round pushed back against the receiver face and it should give you a case exactly fitted to the chamber...THEN...measure the shoulder to base length and compare that with a standard drawing of the 22-250...the difference is the "excess" headspace. 

The reason you should start with new brass to begin with and follow this procedure with break action guns, is you fit a new case to the chamber...then know the measurements...and can set you sizing die to just push the shoulder back one or two thou...just enough for it to close easy but not enough to cause a lot of case stretch.  Doing this procedure should reduce you case stretching to less the 5 thou in the Handi...AND KEEP THE LOADS DOWN...the handi likes to eat hot loaded cases.

Using this method will also let you determine the chamber dimensions by measuring the shoulder point...the base OD, the shoulder OD and the neck OD of a fired case.  If you are getting much more than a couple thou stretch in ANY of those dimension you might consider rechambering to a slightly larger case that will clean up the mess...hopefully.  The case will also show any abnormalities in the chamber by the measurements...buy an cheap 1", 0.0001" reading micrometer...

One of the best rechambers for the 22-250 is going to the 22-243 Middlested...nothing more than a necked down 243 Win.  You get a case capacity aboiut 6% larger than a 220 Swift...it wil clean up an oversized 22-250 chamber while the other "improved" version won't...you can load to Swift velocity at about 45 KPSI...the cases will last a very long time and "USUALLY" the chambering reamer and die set are very closely matched, SAAMI minimum size...I've used up two Douglas barrels in about 30 years with this cartridge...getting close to 5000 rounds per barrel before the 1/4" accuracy fell off to about 3/4".

A 22-6mm Rem is also a good one by not as popular...and there are several other wildcats around.  The one major problem with the Handi's short barrel is these wildcats work best with a 26-30" barrel, but if your 22-250 chamber is screwed up you have very few alternatives...


AND...what Larry said covers it very well...so maybe throwing money down a rat hole isn't the thing to do...those "bad" handi barrels make great jack handles, experimental doodads, relatively good steel for other projects...etc.


Luck on you quest.

[quickdtoo]

There's a couple simple COL(Cartridge Overall Length) tools shown in the FAQs, one by Fred M you can make with empty brass, Fred M's barrel fitting info shows how to bed the barrel underlug to the frame. 

Tim

[rich337]

The Middlestead re-chamber idea is very intriguing.  5000 rounds sounds great to me.  I always thought the middlestead was harder on barrels than the 250.  Isn't the life expectancy of the 250 substantially shorter than 5000?  I like the idea of the lower pressure and longer case life too not to mention the nice new chamber.  Thanks NFG.     

[rich337]

I forgot to ask.  My .22-250 barrel was fit by the factory.  Is it normal for them to return NOT fitting properly?  Is it normal to have to further shim and bed the barrel from the factory?

[quickdtoo]

If a factory fitted barrel is loose on the frame without the forend installed, it needs to go back for replacement, if headspace is within SAAMI specs of .006" or less, you're good to go, you just need to use good reloading techniques to get the best case life if headspace is on the generous side. Bedding the underlug is just an option for improving accuracy that 99.999999999% of the members here don't do, use the reloading tips that have been shared here and go from there. 

Tim

[NFG]

ANY caliber/case combo can waste a barrel in a short time IF you go nuts with the velocity and pressures...and a whole lot of dogs barking at the sound of another dog barking and a bunch of total unadulterated BS being constantly spread aroung...P.O. Ackley proved a long time ago that any pressure over 40 KPSI will cause throat erosion...thoat erosion is what wears out barrels NOT the number of bullets...We're speaking of accuracy here not just banging around...keeping the pressures down in the mid 40's will slow down the throat erosion...not letting the barrel get hot, using cooler burning powders, flat based bullets and so on.

The level of  accuracy you require is also limited by the velocity...there are a whole host of other parameters like powders, bullets, primers and what your rifle likes or not...you gotta be smarter than a hammer to stretch the life of a barrel...I've shot out barrels in less than 500 rounds because they were BIG cases, small bores, used lots of powder, the pressure was jacked to the limit and beyond, to get the highest velocity possible...that was the goal...speed only...accuracy and barrel life were way down the list.

Most people want velocity...I wanted barrel longevity, modest velocity but high enough to vaporize squirrels so I took care to follow all the nuances to attain my goal...nothing special about the Midd and I guarantee I know shooters that want the highest velocity possible with it and their barrels get used up in less than 2000 rounds...most of the time much less.  I don't know how long my pressent Midd will last, a rechambered SS T/C Encore but I suspect well over 2500 rounds.   But bragging rights are personal...some want speed, some want something else....you have to decide for yourself what you want.

I also shoot a 6mm-284 that is a "known barrel burner"...BS...all the same things that go for the Midd go for the 6mm-284 and even more so because the case is bigger...not to mention the 220 Swift...I've had 3 or 4 of them...I got higher velocities than the 22-250 and the barrel lives lasted directly proportional the the level of speed I ran them...pushed to the limit 1500 was a very good barrel...drop the velocity 100 fs, shoot slow and let the barrel cool down and you add life...doing the samo-samo to ANY high velocity round and you will extend the lif expectancy of the barrel by many rounds...doesn't really matter how big or how small the case is, it is all relative to a following a few basic tenents.

As far as what level you go to in the accuracy department, again, that is a choice you make...I don't bed the underlug per se, I  bed the bottom sides of the frame where the barrel fits...the object is to return the barrel to as close to the same place as possible each time you close it...I use steel epoxy...Devcon, JB weld, Acra-glass bedding compound, etc., what ever I happen to have on hand...I've even used some two part epoxy I used to do golf clubs, mixed with some flock and steel or aluminum powder.  I doesn't talk long to mix, run a small bead along the rails, close the barrel and leave overnight.  Put lots of release material or you will have to freeze it or heat it to get it apart.   I also shim up tight for the same reason...you can't have consistent high accuracy without consistent lockup...you can shoot a tiny group once or twice but not group after group after group...and don't try to snow me with stories... Ibendoondistolong.   Fred shows the way and how easy it is.

I just do a few things that I have learned over the years that help in the accuracy department like bedding(all rifles and sometimes shotguns) shimming the Handi, taking care with my brass prep and so on.

You don't HAVE to do anything other than shoot it and have fun...it all depends on how small a group you want and how consistent you want those groups to stay.  My thinking is it doesn't take much time or effort to get from 1 1/2" groups down to 3/4" groups and the only accurate rifles are interesting to me...besides with the price of components today I REALLY HATE blowing all that money on a missed shot...doesn't matter if it is a squirrel or a paper target at 400 yards...I want to hit what I aim at.

Most of what I do or say in the reloading game is highly argumentative and usually gets into comparing apples with hambergers, the arguments get so far out of phase.  It's like golf, bowling, baseball, racing etc...if you're not consistent you don't win.

Luck with your problem