Author Topic: sizing brass (Read 984 times)

Empty Quiver · « **on:** April 19, 2009, 10:36:12 AM »

Newbie ? here. I plan to reload some 300 WM, it has all been fired once through my rifle. What is a reasonable minimum amount of brass prep that I need to do? I'm not going to Camp Perry, but I would like to put some Partitions through an Elk this fall. I haven't purchased any dies yet, I am not even sure as to whether there is a neck die or if you just adjust the full length dies aproprietly. As to case length, is it imperitive that they be trimmed? I want to avoid spending a bunch of money on tools that are low return on investment for my circumstances. With over 120 cases to play with I'm hoping to avoid multiple reloads for a while.

Of coarse this is all assuming I can find the components necessary for this adventure

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 19, 2009, 10:47:49 AM »

E Q

Depending on the rifle you may be able to get by just neck sizing , with them being only once fired the odds are good that they will not need trimmed either .

First thing I would do is check the cases for leingth , you stand a good chance that their still under max O.L. and if so , all I would do is chamfer the case mouths and clean the primer pockets , then pick a mid range load for the bullet / powder combo your wanting to work with and load a box .

stimpy

calvon · « **Reply #2 on:** April 19, 2009, 11:05:36 AM »

Maintaining proper case length is vitally important. Consider this scenario: suppose the piece of brass you are now loading is a half millimeter longer than the chamber. When you chamber this piece of brass it will 'hit bottom' in the rifle's chamber. Then when you crank the bolt down it will jam it in a little further, creating a nasty little crimp in the mouth of the case. The end result is that the bullet doesn't start to move until the pressure has risen higher than it would have if the case had been properly sized. You might get more pressure than you bargained for.

Brass that is too long is dangerous. Brass that is too short is not. Get a case length gauge and a trimmer and use them.

These comments are applicable ONLY to bottleneck rifle brass. They are not applicable to straightwall cases such as 9mm pistol brass.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2009, 11:24:58 AM »

Calvon brings up a valid point , at some time you ARE going to have to trim your cases , so you may want to start looking in that tool area soon , and even strait walled cases can have the same problem, just not as often .

Most manuals will give you both a MAX O.L. as well as a Trim O.L. just keep the cases between these numbers and you will be good .

stimpy

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #4 on:** April 19, 2009, 12:01:27 PM »

Next ? are the metal length guides all right? They look like a sheet of note book paper that has been stamped out as a template. Should I pony up for a calipre? The rifle is a Tikka t3 if it matters. Would the length dies and a file be a better idea? Currently I have plans on reloading .223, 300 WM, .45/70, maybe 325WSM and 40 s&w. With a single stage the pistol seems like way too much work.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2009, 12:02:23 PM »

If you only load for the one case a Lee trimmer is about as cheap as it gets and they do a decent job. As you grow your reloading, all you have to do is buy the little add on for each case, they are under $5 for each. The biggest problem is that they only make them for the more popular reloaded cases. If I was to get a top of the line case trimmer, I would seriously look at the Hornady power trimmer. It looks like one heck of a machine. The down side is it is $300 or so. I use the Lee for 90% of my trimming and it does fine. I would buy a full length set of dies to start with. You can always back it off just a little to have a poor man's neck sizer. When you feel so inclined, then you can add a specialized neck sizing die. Good Luck and Good Shooting

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2009, 12:07:32 PM »

If you buy a Lee trimmer, you do not need gauges or a caliper. I have been reloading for a lot of years and I am still using my single stage press. Unless you are going to be shooting hundreds of rounds a week, a single stage press will do just fine. If you buy a single stage, get a good one - one that is cast iron in any color that suits your fancy. If I was on a budget, I would look at the Lee Classic the cast iron press. I have an RCBS Rock Chucker from the beginning and it is still turning out quality reloads.

maver · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2009, 01:28:01 AM »

I have a question...

I have been offered 400 once fired 6.5x55 lapua cases for a small fee of course). If I am to take these will I have to full length size them or will I get away with neck sizing them only. My gut feeling tells me to FL size with my Lee press and dies (plus all other case prep that I do - case length size, flash hole and primer pocked debur and clean and chamfer mouth and run through my tumbler for a few hours then load em up and fire them in my rifle to have them fireformed.

For my existing cases I am also considering buying a trimmer to trim the case neck wall thickness if its needed. This is a steyr pro hunter II so is not customised in any way its of the shelf...So my question is do you think I will benefit from next wall trimming or not.

I will be using this rifle for fullbore silhouette shooting but also like to see it perform at its optimal of the bench for load development etc...

Maver

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** April 20, 2009, 02:04:04 AM »

I detest trimming brass but its a nesessity when reloading rifle cases. You can get away with skipping it in handguns but not in rifles. We were just fooling around with ars and mass loading both in .223 and .308 and found that a guy has to trim for them just about every loading. Alot depends on how tight your gun is chambered. If it tight you might get a few firings before you need to trim but i wouldnt count on it. A cheap trimmer like a lee or lyman isnt all that expensive to buy and is about a nessesity for a handloader. Ive got a power rcbs set up thats a bit nicer but still a pain. My buddy just went to the dillon set up and its much faster but its cailber specific and expensive. Im going to get one and set it up for .223s and .308s though. Those are the only rifles i shoot enough to really need it for. the rcbs can take care of the rest.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2009, 02:54:15 AM »

I always fully resize my cases. I know you don't have to if you are shooting out of the same rifle, which is why neck sizing is fine, but I do in the off chance they are used in another firearm. Maybe resizing shortens the case life a little but I replace my brass long before it is ready to crack in the chamber anyway.

Maver, in your case a full resizing is not only recommended, I would say it is pretty close to mandatory. You have to bring those cases back in to spec so you can use them in your rifle.

Steve P · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2009, 09:55:20 AM »

Quote from: maver on April 20, 2009, 01:28:01 AM

I have a question...

I have been offered 400 once fired 6.5x55 lapua cases for a small fee of course). If I am to take these will I have to full length size them or will I get away with neck sizing them only. My gut feeling tells me to FL size with my Lee press and dies .......

Maver

Yes, you need to full length size them. You do not know what they were fired in nor what the chamber dimensions are. A buddy and I each have 6.5x55s on Mauser 96 actions. Both have same trigger and same bolt mods. Only difference when looking at them side by side is the scope and shoulder sling. My gun has the original field guage chamber that came with the military barrel. My buddy has taken off his original barrel and put on a replacement barrel. His barrel was re-threaded and re-chambered to SAAMI specs. My neck sized ammo will not fit in his gun. We cannot share ammo when hunting.

Set your sizer die so your new Lapua brass fits your chamber. Best bet is full length sizing and doing your prep as you stated.

Good Luck.

Steve

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2009, 11:49:07 PM »

+1 of full length sizing once fired brass from another gun. I have 3 - 223's. If I decide to switch brass from one gun to another, I full length size.

maver · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2009, 12:15:07 AM »

Thanks gentlemen.

When I get my hands on the Brass I will go through FL size and seat a bullet as a mock up round (with no powder or primer) to see that it fits and then I can run the rest of the brass through with the same settings. I have a Lee press the 50th anniversary kit. It was not to expensive and I think is a great starter pack for any reloader. Although I have since bought the RCBS chargemaster 1500 dispenser and scales for throwing a charge. Its a safe purchase I think and hope it will last me a long time as I can use the scales to weigh cases also for sorting if I go down this route.

I am thinking of ordering a neck trimmer for my 6.5x55 brass does anyone have any recommendations? Will probably order from sinclair if I do though.

Maver

Steve P · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2009, 04:13:09 AM »

If they are Lapua cases, they are most likely matched about as perfect as any brass made. You can sort them, but I doubt you will find a lot of difference. Especially if you size and trim before weighing.

If you do not have lots of calibers to reload, I would recommend the Lee case trimmers. You order the trimmer pilot and shell holder in one kit and a cutter and lock stud in another. Both should be about $10. They work excellent. I have an RCBS hand trimmer, a Forster hand trimmer, and a Lyman power trimmer. They each have their specific uses on my reloading bench, but I still reach into my box of about 20 different Lee trimmer to do a lot of my trimming. You don't have to spend the big $$s to get a good tool to trim.

Steve

maver · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2009, 04:22:32 AM »

Steve

They are indeed lapua cases...and i have the lee case length cutter and lock stud as part of my lee anniversary kit...to date with all the brass i have i have only had to trim 1 case after its fourth firing. Although i check all cases with the trimmer after every firing as good practise...

Land_Owner · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2009, 10:32:01 PM »

Quote from: Empty Quiver

I plan to reload...What is a reasonable minimum amount of brass prep that I need to do? ...As to case length, is it imperitive that they be trimmed? I want to avoid spending a bunch of money on tools that are low return on investment for my circumstances. With over 120 cases to play with I'm hoping to avoid multiple reloads for a while.

Back to the original thread...

You want to reload. You're just getting started. You are asking questions to find out where to focus limited resources. What are your "circumstances"?

One hundred and twenty (120) are not a lot of cases. I started with one hundred and now have over 3,000 and still that isn't very many, but it took time. Pick up free brass at the outdoor range whenever possible.

"...hoping to avoid multiple reloads for a while..." indicates you are not going to be shooting very much. Reloading and shooting go hand in hand. You don't shoot less as a reloader, you shoot MORE and it costs less. That is what makes reloading fun. It is an honorable AND FUN hobby. You get to tune your load to your rifle and bullet. You get to try combinations that the factory does not load. You get to advance accuracy for your rifle beyond off-the-shelf. You get to increase your personal confidence several orders of magnitude.

Do you own a scale (electronic or balance)? You will need one. Purchase a good one. Purchase a caliper too (electronic or manual). You will use it as much as your scale. Do the research first. Ask questions.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2009, 10:35:35 PM »

I weigh cases that have been deprimed, sized, and trimmed to length. I reload similar weighing cases for hunting. Similar weighing cases should have similar internal capacities and similar firing characteristics for increased accuracy.

Your rifle's chamber and/or magazine have a tolerance that can not be exceeded or the round won't chamber at all (bolt won't close), the bullet will be pushed back by the Lands into the case upon feeding into the chamber, or the round will be too long to fit into the magazine.

STEP 1...Cut one case with a hacksaw. Cut one side only for the full length of the neck to the shoulder. Put a bullet in the EMPTY case and just get the bullet started into the neck. Put the DUMMY round into the breech and SLOWLY close the bolt. Carefully extract the round and measure its length with the caliper. Now you know the distance from the bolt face to the Lands of your rifling measured in overall "finished round" length.

WRITE THE LENGTH DOWN. Make a log of your findings and you will always have them at your fingertips.

STEP 2...Carefully take the DUMMY round from Step 1 and attempt to insert it into your magazine. If it fits without ANY pushback of the bullet into the neck, GREAT. You're done. If it won't go in the magazine, you will have to push the bullet into the case until it just fits in the magazine. Carefully extract the dummy round and MEASURE ITS LENGTH. Write it down. Now you know the MAXIMUM length of any round that will fit in the magazine.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2009, 10:52:50 PM »

As you develop reloads you will try variations of bullet seating depth to determine whether shorter or longer bullet "jump to Lands" is better or worse for accuracy.

You will want each of your cases to be the same length. Consistent length cases are one aspect of equal "grip" on the perimeter of the bullet when it is seated in the case.

Repeatable and accurate results are the desired traits. Everything you do that is consistent, round to round, is a reloading aid in repeating your results. Whether those consistency traits are accurate or not will depend on many more aspects than just case length and bullet seating depth.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2009, 05:50:42 PM »

I'll take that as a yes you really ought to trim the cases to the proper length both for safety and accuracy. Now, are full length sizer dies usable as neck sizing dies or are they totally seperate animals.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #19 on:** April 27, 2009, 02:20:08 PM »

Here is what RCBS instructions say about trimming cases:

Quote

TRIM CASES AFTER THE SIZING AND EXPANDING OPERATIONS. WE SUGGEST TRIMMING 5 TO 10 THOUSANDTHS LESS THAN THE MAXIMUM LENGTH...CHECK CASES FOR OVERALL LENGTH AND TRIM IF NECESSARY. IF BULLETS ARE TO BE CRIMPED, IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT CASES BE TRIMMED TO THE SAME OVERALL LENGTH.

Full Length Sizing dies can be used to size just the necks. From memory (please verify):

1.) Turn the die into the press until the case holder engages the bottom of the die at the top of the stroke.
2.) Back the die off of the case holder a full revolution or two.
3.) Insert and size a case. Carefully observe the amount of sizing that has been accomplished along the neck of the case. Adjust the die toward the case holder (screw it in 1/8 to 1/4 turn) until full neck sizing is accomplished, but prior to engaging the shoulder of the case.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2009, 06:41:48 AM »

I have read that and sorta planned to do that, then started seeing pure neck sizing dies. I was just wondering if it was one instruction sheet for all dies and I'd make a mistake.

After spending the weekend out looking for large rifle primers it seems the 300 will have to wait. I'm wondering if I ought to buy all the flints I can find, as the flintlock may be the only thing I'll be able to load and shoot. If our dear leader would just be quite about guns for thirty days I think this would come to an end.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2009, 01:17:23 PM »

Bicycle inner tubes are being depleted faster than powder and primers for use as sling shot manufacturing materials. I've got plenty of rocks and I know what you mean...

maver · « **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2009, 10:11:23 PM »

Gentlemen

I have a question it has probably been asked a thousand times already.

I would like to know what best practice you recommend for brass preparation. I have lapua 6.5x55 its fireformed. So my proceedure after it has been fired is to deprime and neck size with the same Lee die. The clean primer pocket check COAL with lee gauge and chamfer only if I have to cut of any brass when checking COAL. (Cases have been used 4 times already and neck has already been chamfered inside and out after first firing). I then debur the flash hole. Then it is into the tumbler for 3 or 4 hours. To remove media from primer pocket whole I stick in the flash hole debur tool and give it a light twist to free the hole and any surrounding media that might be stuck there.

My question is now is it better to clean the brass after firing before I do any of the case prep described above. As I have read that powder that is still in the case can cause damage to the dies as i deprime and neck size a dirty case. Should I leave the spent primer in the case until after cleaning to avoid media clogging the flash hole. I do not have a separate deprimer tool.

I also have on order an RCBS case master gauge from sinclair and a the sinclair neck turner tool. When I get this should I next turn cases before I neck size them in the press.

I am sure i have loads of more questions but this will do for now.

all comments welcomed

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #23 on:** April 30, 2009, 02:45:18 AM »

lets see. I loaded about 500 rounds last month on a progressive press using the powder dispenser (not weighted) in mixed .223 brass some military some comercial. probalby a half a dozen differnt headstamps. I lubed them and ran them through the press. these were all once fired and it didnt even trim them or do any other prep. They were loaded with hornady 60 grain vmax bullets and 748. I used ww primers because thats all i had. After they were loaded they spent a hour in the tumbler to get the lube off. Now if any ammo was going to show signs of inaccuracy due to loading practices this would be the batch. Shot it out of my 16 inch flat top hbar barreled gun with a 4x acog on it yesterday at the range. Smallest groups were at a 1/2 and none were bigger then 3/4. Granted this is a proven accurate gun but it shows you that you really dont have to be all that anal to load very accurate ammo. Maybe it would have shot under a 1/2 inch if i would have seperated brass trimmed it, uniformed primer pockets, turned the necks ect. But then id still be loading instead of shooting and nowhere other then competition is 1/4 inch groups going to buy you anything over 1/2 inch groups in the field.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #24 on:** April 30, 2009, 02:57:06 AM »

I always clean my cases before I put them into the resizing die. I clean first for two reasons, 1) as you indicate a dirty case can damage the die or at least can damage the case and 2) I inspect and sort as I clean. If a case is showing excessive signs of wear, I want to pitch it at the earliest opportunity.

There are no real short cuts.

Can I ask why you want to do neck resizing only? The actual differences in effort between a neck resizing and a full length case resizing are negligible. The best reason to do a neck sizing only is you want the case to fit perfectly in the chamber of the only rifle that is going shoot the round. That pretty much describes a competition bench shooter. If there is any chance at all that you might share your ammunition with a hunting buddy or if you might use it in more than one of your own firearms, you really should do a full length resizing.

I would suggest you read one of the reloading manuals. They all have good step by step procedures. I like the Lyman book best. Follow the procedure they suggest exactly and you won't go wrong.

maver · « **Reply #25 on:** April 30, 2009, 03:21:48 AM »

Bart

This is a hunting rifle steyr 6.5x55 pro hunter but I want to keep the brass life for as long as possible and everyone says that full length sizing can reduce case life. I do not share my ammo with another gun or shooter (it's the only bigbore rifle I have) and I use it for bigbore silhouette's and some paper target shooting (selfish perhaps but true).

I am indeed new to reloading and learning loads from others and I get to try out my own loads at the weekend at a 100 Metre range. For me it is more a confidence thing to know that my rifle and ammo are performing the best they can and if this can be improved then thats more confidence that I will have when standing there about to shoot a match. A load married to my rifle = a happy shooter.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #26 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:57:49 AM »

Full length resizing can reduce case life, but I usually retire brass long before it becomes dangerous anyway. Although the most expensive component by far, brass is still pretty cheap.

maver · « **Reply #27 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:48:37 AM »

In Ireland we have to buy all our components in from overseas so nothing is so cheap that we can chuck it without question ...although we have to be careful not to let it get into a dangerous state for use...