Author Topic: Do Center fires ever come clean??  (Read 901 times)

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Offline fr3db3ar

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Do Center fires ever come clean??
« on: August 10, 2009, 09:25:04 AM »
I've got this new to me Handi in .223, I've put about 40 rounds through it in the last couple days.  I've been cleaning and occasionally brushing the barrel for about an hour and still haven't seen a clean patch.

Is this normal?  Did I over shoot between cleaning?

I'm normally a rimfire guy so cleaning a center fire is new to me.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 10:52:37 AM »
You can get centerfire barrels clean. I personally am convinced you do not want to get barrels perfectly clean. Especially factory barrels. They just seem to shoot better dirty, as long as they are not real bad. I do not clean mine (even handlapped barrels) real good. I get most of the powder and copper out of it, but not all. In some guns, I do not clean at all until I notice the accuracy drops off. Some need a regular cleaning, but like I said, i do not take it down to bare steel. I had a factory Remington 700 VS in 222 and it definitely liked a dirty barrel. If I cleaned it, it would shoot bad until it got a good 100 or more rounds down the tube and then it would start shooting .25" groups all day long. I never found out how many rounds it took for it to lose accuracy. I would feel guilty about not cleaning it and scrub it up after a couple of years and have to go through the routine all over again. You will have to find out what works best for your particular rifle. If I was a betting man, I would bet that it will like a dirty barrel, being it is a factory barrel.

Here is an excerpt from the FAQ on Shilen barrel site.


How clean is clean?
We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside.

Good Luck and Good Shooting
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 10:57:24 AM »
What you think is dirt or fouling may just be some of the brass brush that is ground off by the hone marks in the bore.  Handi bores can be real hard on a brush, and they will grind down to just bore size fairly rapidly while cleaning some rifles.  Larry
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 11:04:53 AM »
IMO more barrels are ruined by cleaning than anything else.  I have a friend that can never get really small groups.  He's tried everything.  I'm convinced it's because he's obsessive about cleaning.  He cleans after every range trip & sometimes between groups.  I clean rifles when they are new and about once a year after that.  I never hunt or shoot for groups with a clean bore.
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Offline petemi

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 11:11:09 AM »
CLEAN????? clean?????  Clean what????  You mean you CLEAN your rifle????  You mean the inside too???  What's that?????  Why????  Huh??? Clean????  If the bullet comes out the hole.....that's clean enough. :D

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Offline fr3db3ar

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 11:34:18 AM »
Ok...I get the idea.  Now when you say you don't clean them.....I assume you at least run a dry patch or 2 down the barrel at the end of the day to get the powder out?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 11:59:43 AM »
A lot of the "dirt" is from the bluing process, bores aren't plugged when they blue the barrels, they're immersed in a bath. This will cause a brown patch for a while until you shoot it enough to wear it away, you'll see the same thing on the outside of the barrel when cleaning it. Another cause for dirty patches is carbon, many solvents don't deal with it well, so you need to remove it too, there are several solvents that work well on the carbon, I use Hoppe's Elite, then follow up with foaming cleaner for the copper.  ;)

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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 12:31:03 PM »
What you think is dirt or fouling may just be some of the brass brush that is ground off by the hone marks in the bore.  Handi bores can be real hard on a brush, and they will grind down to just bore size fairly rapidly while cleaning some rifles.  Larry

EXACTLY!!  This will vary depending on the "roughness" of your bore too.

Quote from: swampman
IMO more barrels are ruined by cleaning than anything else.

Swampy, add "IMPROPER" in that statement and I will completely agree.  ;)

At this point, I suggest you step away from the bore brush. I would run a couple solvent soaked patches thru the bore. Shortly followed by dry patches and finally an oiled patch call it good. Basic rule of thumb, run a brush thru the bore once for every other shot fired since last cleaning.

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 02:04:06 PM »
I think frequently & improper are the same thing in this instance.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 02:59:23 PM »
I'm in the don't clean it till ya have to group.  I don't shoot much paper, but do alot of plinking with everything from 22's to 45-70 as well as hunting whenever I can.  If they hit where I'm lookin', thats clean enough for me.  DP
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 12:20:22 AM »
fr3db3ar - there is no right answer. You have to find what works for the gun you are shooting. I rarely run a dry patch down the barrel. If I want to remove some of the burnt powder, I generally run two wet patches followed by 3 dry. it gets a lot of the carbon out, but not all. However there are some guns that just seem to shoot better dirty and those I do not do any thing with until I notice the accuracy drop off. It could be 50 shots or it could be hundreds. Most of the guns I have do well if I do the above method about every 40-50 shots, but like I said it depends. There are so many methods of cleaning - and they all work to a certain extent. IMHO - improper cleaning has ruined more barrels than any thing else (not using a quality rod and a bore guide) - much worse than just shooting and not cleaning. Let the gun tell you when it needs cleaned and do not scrub it down to bare steel. BTW - I rarely use a brush and when I do, I use a nylon brush. I went through a phase that I cleaned my guns often, I found that some of them just did not want to shoot well. So I just shot them, and shot them. Lo and behold, they shot better. Of course they all get to the point where they will shoot poorly when enough copper fouling and powder residue builds up. Some like to be relatively clean when shot too. You just have to find out what works.
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Offline fr3db3ar

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 01:55:42 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.  I worried about the burnt powder attracting moisture to the inside of the barrel.....apparently that's not a problem.
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Offline coop2564

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Re: Do Center fires ever come clean??
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 05:50:20 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.  I worried about the burnt powder attracting moisture to the inside of the barrel.....apparently that's not a problem.

Burnt powder is not a problem. Myself I clean mine about every 40 round or when I see the accuracy opening up. A well broke in barrel can often go more shots and a new one much less. I just run a patch with Hoppes on it in and out a few times let set a few mins then run a bore snake thru about twice, shoot a fowler and I'm ready to go again.
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