Plain base cast bullets in a 30/30

[haroldclark]

I am considering a mold without a gas check or a shank.  A Plain flat base 30 caliber bullet and cast to about 14 Brinnell hardness.  I have shot thousands of 30s with gas checks, but have not ventured away from the safety of non leading with gas checks.

I want to run my bullet out the barrel around 1550 fps.  My concern is leading at that velocity.  I have shot many 44 Mags at that velocity without gas checks and no leading, but for some reason the idea in a 30 caliber makes me nervous.

Has any one shot 30 calibers in rifles and long barrel Contenders without gas checks.  I'm interested in your experience shooting a bullet that is designed for a gas check and show without the gas check being applied.

I shoot mostly Saeco molded bullets.  I have 6 - 30 caliber molds, but all are designed for gas checks.

I am looking for input on your experiences.

Harold Clark

[WayneS]

I've shot gobbs of GC bullets in a 10" T/C 30-30 W/O the GC, mine were in the 1200 FPS range with no problems, I was useing a 50-50 lube and a copy of the SAECO 307, .302 nose & .311 body.
To keep the powder away from the lube I used a pinch of poly filler.

[Nobade]

My current cowboy silhouette load in a Marlin with a 26 inch barrel is a 175gr. plainbase bullet, lubed with Lee liquid alox, loaded with 1/2 case AA2230-C and 1/2 case cream 'o' wheat. The filler is up in the neck, so it is pretty heavily compressed. I'm seeing 1700 fps, zero leading, and palm size groups at 200M. (about 3 inches.) I have tried this load with bare, unlubricated bullets and it works fine, but the LLA gives me a little peace of mind.

If you use fillers like this, some warnings to remember.
1. Use powders that are safe with a case full. No fast stuff!
2. don't do this in cases with a pronounced bottleneck.
3. If you see COW left in the case or on the mouth of it, your pressures are too high. Back off the powder or switch to a slower one.
4. make sure it is a compressed load and can't shift around.

[haroldclark]

Thank you for your input.  It is interesting that I shoot a 10" Contender, a 16 " Contender and a long barreled Marlin Cowboy rifle.  I think the Cowboy is 26"s.  I will try 1200 fps with the bullets that have a gas check shank this coming Tuesday.

Nobade, is your plain base mold a custom?  Yeah, I would be nervous without the Lee Lube too.  I have used Lee Lube many times.  I don't care for removing leading.  I have used Cream of Wheat and Corn Meal in years past.

WayneS, your mold must be a custom too if it is a copy of the 307.  I will have to look up the 307 - I just looked at the Saeco Chart.  I like the bearing surface on that bullet.

My molds are Saeco 301, 315 & 316.  I have 3 lymans, but I like the Saeco ones best, so that is what I use.  I cast some 315s and 316s yesterday to play with.  I have several hundreds of each of them, but they are all gas checked and sized. 

Thanks again for your input.

[jlchucker]

Just recently there was a group buy on the cast bullets website for a plain-base clone of lyman's 311041.  It was special ordered in a 6 cavity version from Lee.  I've got one, but have yet to cast with it, since winter here makes for cold casting outside.  I intend to cast some fairly soft bullets in a month or so and try some in 30-30, behind a light load of Unique.  If it's accurate I'll probably use it for deer hunting if jacketed bullets become too scarce.  Lead was good in the old days--should still work now.  It's a just-in-case thing that I have leverguns in 30-30, 35 Remington, 44 magnum, and 45-70.  All shoot most cast bullets just as good as they shoot jacketed ones, and my hunting is in the swamps and woods. 

[haroldclark]

I have a 2 cavity Lyman #311041 mold with a gas check shank.  I haven't ever used it.

I haven't used a Lee mold in a Looooooooong time.  How do they work for you?

Bullets are getting very scarce and I don't think it is going to get any better, either.  Fortunately, those of us that cast our own are going to be OK without the Factory stuff.

Yesterday, I cast some test bullets to shoot without the gas check and see how they perform.  I know I have tried it before, but I was remiss and didn't make any notes in my database.  Well, that might just as not have happened, 'cause I can't remember anything good about the loads, but can't say for sure, either.

I have worn out one barrel in my 444 Marlin and had it replaced.  I only shot Cast bullets in it around 1300 fps with plain base bullets.  I never went any fast because I couldn't stand the recoil and still think I was having fun.  I had to use a 300 grain bullet to hit 200 meter Chickens and then on out to Rams.  My 245 grain bullet lost it past 150 yards.  The Ole barrel had a 1 in 38" twist.  The new one was a 1-16, I think.  That was the most accurate gun with the 245 grainer out to 100 yards.  It would shoot 2 shot groups into 0.2 inch, but the third shot would stray out to an 1.5 inch.  So, I just shot two shot groups and considered myself lucky.

My new Cowboy 30/30 has the Ballard rifling. 

I have not had much experience with the 35 Remington, but a good flat nosed lead bullet would be a good choice for deer, don't you think?

I'm sure you have heard the "They Brothers' say that cast bullets don't shoot in micro-grooved barrels.  Not true.

I would like to hear how your new bullet works for you.

Harold

[WayneS]

I used the 31141, now 311041, in my 10" T/C 30-30 for IHMSA silhouette's shot it in standing, 10.0 of Unique with a pistol primer gave me 1200  FPS with both SD & ES below 10 , just stick a little "dacron" poly filler or dryer lint on top of the powder to keep the powder away from the lube.
The "custom" mold copied the 31141 & SAECO # 307, but I had the nose opened up to .302. I would size them 310 leaving the front driving band unsized, I used a 308 Win. sizing die to just size the neck, there was just enough neck tension to almost hold the bullet in place. At matches I would pull the bullet out about 1/4" and then load, letting the bullet seat into the throat/lands.
happy shooting

[haroldclark]

Thanks for the data, Wayne.  Good info.  I never thought about using a 308 sizer on the 30/30 neck.  Good Idea and I will try that.  I size my 30 calibers to 310 too.  I have used the 50/50 lube for years too.

Please verify that your bullets do have the Gas Check Shank or not.

Thanks again.

Harold

[Sweetwater]

Just where I am headed!
I've also shot the Lyman #31141 with gas check in 30-30, 308W, and 30-06. Getting a similar mold in Plain Base and leave the gas checks to the rich and famous. A few years back, I ran a lot of a similar design in a Lee mold in 32 caliber(.321) for the 32WSpcl. It's the same as a 30-30 case with a .321 bullet. I left the gas check off and ran some pretty exhaustive tests (for me) with powders from Dupont700X up through IMR4064. I found velocities up to around 1350fps were easy with fast powders and no filler. Above that level, keyholes began to show on targets. 700X, PB, Green Dot, and Unique all had loads that would perform. I particularly liked 9gr of Unique. I wiped the base of the bullet before inserting it into the case, and the body of the bullet kept the powder from getting to the grease groove. Never a mis-fire and no leading. Mix was straight WW. With gas checks, this same bullet does 2230fps with 32gr of H335 and accounted for a Mule Deer, 2 Antelope, and a Cow Elk in the season of 2001 in Wyoming.

Your 30-30 should do even better. My 32WSpcl is a 1927 Model 94 Winchester and very well worn. It was my Grandfather's and he used it in Maine to feed the family from 1927 up into the early 1940's. Since the war, it has only used during hunting season, as opposed to being used 365 days a year.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Nobade]

Hi, to answer your question about a gascheck shank, I first started the fillered loads to figure out a way to get a box of Meister bevel base bullets to shoot. Then when I had such good success with those I tried #311071 with the same results. That one does have a check shank. I also have a Hoch nose pour mould that was originally 215 gr, that I cut down to make a 175 gr. plainbase bullet. It works quite well too. From what I've seen it doesn't matter if a bullet has a check shank or not, they perform about the same using fillers. If you go with just powder, the plainbase bullets will shoot a bit better. BTW, yesterday I shot a levergun silhouette match with some of my old Meister loads, 1.0cc IMR 4198 and 1.6cc COW. It's a pretty wimpy load but I won the match with it, shooting a 31 out of 40. Only rang one ram, if I hadn't done that I would have gotten all 10 of them. Since I started playing with COW in the 30-30 I sure have become a believer in it if it's used properly.

[WayneS]

Thanks for the data, Wayne.  Good info.  I never thought about using a 308 sizer on the 30/30 neck.  Good Idea and I will try that.  I size my 30 calibers to 310 too.  I have used the 50/50 lube for years too.

Please verify that your bullets do have the Gas Check Shank or not.

Thanks again.

Harold

Harold, Yes all the bullets have a GC shank, and wiping any lube off the base works and eleminates the poly filler OR if you can find any "Motor Mica" powdered mica, put a little like a tea spoon in a plastic tub, drop your bullets in it as you lube & size them, give it a shake every 10 or so bullets to coat the bullets, the mica sticks to the lube and keeps the lube from getting all over the bullets

[haroldclark]

WayneS.  I have used Motor Mica for as long as I have been casting (30 years).  I have a drawer under my sizer that catches the bullets. There is a box with a slanted bottom from the top edge to the bottom edge on the other end.  A cloth with Motor Mica sprinkled on it catches the bullets first and they roll down the slanted ramp picking up a Motor Mica coating.  People ask me if it keeps from leading or is it any more accurate.  I say, I don't know 'cause it works and I'm not changing that method.
Glad to hear your bullets are with Gas Check Shanks.

Thanks for your input.

Nobade.  Good shooting and thanks for you input too.  You do that shooting standing, don't you.  Where I am coming from in this quest is to try to use molds that I have with out Gas Checks.  I have a 140 grain mold in mind with a plain base. Kind of light and short and it costs $139.00 delivered (four cavity).  If I can get away without the new mold, I would be delighted.  I can save the cost of the mold and invest it in gas checks for when I want to go full steam.  I'm not out of 30 caliber GCs, but I'm planning ahead and I don't think they are going to be easy to find soon.

Glad to hear you are using a shanked bullet.  That gives me some encouragement that I will make it work too.

I don't shoot much at the 500 meter Rams with my cast bullets, except in the 308.  My 30/30 contenders and a couple of 7mm TCUs  are used for the Turkeys at 421 Yards.  The 30/30s are old deadly with gas checks.  The 30/30 150 grain bullet that I use is the same as the 140 grain PB, just shorter. 

_____________________________________________
Sweetwater,  I have an old 32 Winchester too.  I don't think mine is that old, though. (1929 vintage).  The more I hear, the more we all are on similar playing fields and the same quest at times.
My 32 Winchester shoots the Oregon Trail 170 grain Bevel Base bullet very well with 10 grains of H4227.  I don't have enough sights to get to 200 meters with that load.  I used to use it for standing shooting at 165 yard (150 meter) Turkeys.  I've used it at the Cowboy Range too.  I don't shoot the regular CB matches, I just go there and play. 

Oregon Trail Bullets in the 30 caliber at 165 grains with BBs keyholed no mater what I did.

I have several hundred of the Meister 7mm 140 grain bullets with the BB. 
I also, have a hundred or so Magnus 170 grain BB bullets that just showed up here one day and I stuck them on a shelf.  The 7mms were strays that ended up here the same way.

I can see a lot of testing coming up soon.  We have a nice big Bathroom about 50 feet from our Silhouette firing line.  I take portable reloading equipment with ready to load brass. My buddy will usually set up the reloading table in the bathroom out of the wind and do the powdering and sinking bullets while another of us shoots and another spots.  We call the guy in the Bathroom "The Head Reloader".  He doesn't think it is funny, but the rest of us do.

Thank you all for the very informative input..  Keep it coming.  We can never have to much information and experience from others.

Harold Clark

[haroldclark]

I bought a 4 cavity Saeco #630 plain base 30 caliber mold from Buffalo Arms last week.  It was delivered in 3 days.  It was listed as a 140 grain weight.  With my casting mix, they are 138.5 grains (3 pounds of Wheel weights and 1 pound of Linotype).

The mold is a Saeco #316 with the gas check base removed.  I took one of my #316 cast bullets and laid in the #630 cavities and it is a perfect fit other than the gas check.

I'm going to try them first with 12.6 grains of Blue Dot in my 30/30 Cowboy Marlin.

In going through my notes, I tried 16 Grains of Alliant 2400 and a Saeco #315 (175 Grain tapered bullet) without the gas check and it shot very well at silhouettes out to 300 meters.  I will be trying that load tomorrow also.

I have over 100 cast, sized and lubed and ready to load for tomorrow, my shooting day.

[Sweetwater]

Buffalo Arms is 2 miles from my front door. Let us know how that new mold and bullet work out for you!

I just inherited a Saeco 41Mag mold (forgot the #) in a 215gr - is 215gr in WW alloy. It is Plain base and shoots like hotcakes in my Bisley at 1500fps and does even better in my 1894S Marlin. May be my eyes! lol

Just got a buy on some 30-30 brass and all this new stuff on 30-30's......guess I'll be shopping for an old 30-30, if I ever get back to work.
The 32WSpcl and the 356W fill all the "need", but there is just something about thutty-thutty...

Actually, I prefer my COW hot with a little brown sugar and maple syrup.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Nobade]

Umm, just so y'all don't think I'm a superman shooter, cowboy levergun silhouette is shot out to 200M, at the big highpower targets with iron sights. On the big 500M range I use my scoped 308 too.

As for the COW, after you shoot it it will be plenty hot and has a nice toasty smell. Especially if the wind is in your face!

[haroldclark]

I didn't get to shoot today.  I never miss a Tuesday shooting day, but am not able to get there today.

Sweetwater, for years I wanted a 35 caliber in a Marlin.  I traded off my 444 Marlin last year.  My old shoulder is way too soft for even light loads with the 300 grain cast bullet.  You do have the best of both sides of the 30/30.

The long neck on the 30/30 (like the 30-06) makes for a superb cast bullet cartridge and the 32 Win is, as well.  Last year, I worked up a load for a friend in the 32 Win.  He wanted it for a pig hunt in Texas. The 32 with Iron Sights would be the "Truck gun" and the 270 would be the longer range gun.  I loaded a Speer 170 flatnose over Reloader 7 and it was a Pig Thumper.  He killed 12 to 13 pigs in his two weeks and not one got up and ran off after being thumped with the 32.  He had one run off with the 270.(Must have been a bad shot with the 270, but the story sounds good, huh?)

The one nice thing about the 30-30 is the variety of cast bullets available.

Nobade, I enjoyed the 200 meter silhouette standing with cast bullets too.  I used to take my big Cab-over camper and stay at the range for 2 days, meeting different guys on Monday and Tuesdays.

Over the years, I have accumulated 5 different guns in the 30/30.  I shoot a 10" Contender (factory barrel) with cast bullets at the 500 meter Range with a 4X scope from a rest. With the rear of the scope base raised, I can reach the Rams at 500 and down to the Pigs at 300.  I can't get low enough to hit the chickens at 200.  Of course, when a Ram runs into my 150 grain bullet, the only thing is a little clang.  The steel hardly shows a mark on it.

The 30/30 bullet that works best in all 5 guns is the Saeco #316.  It is a 150 grain RNFP with a gas check.
When a new shooter joins us at the Silhouette range and we let him shoot our guns, the first thing we tell him when we part is "Don't tell anyone what you have seen or done here today.  Especially, a guy that is already a shooter.  Most guys can't keep quiet and tell.  They come back later after having been insulted by the other shooter for telling big stories.

I have the 311041 Lyman that most guys rave over.  It is only a 2 cavity mold, so I haven't used it, but I have loaned it our or cast some for a friend.

In my 308s, I use the Saeco $315 (used to be listed as a 30/30 bullet) 175 grain tapered bullet.  I use this bullet in all other 30 calibers, other than the 30-30 and the 30-06.  My 30-06 likes the 315, but I like the 200 grain and heavier bullets for the longer range if they will work. 

My 30-06 likes the Saeco #301, a nose riding 210 grain bullet.  It is deadly accurate, too.  My 30-06 is a Remington 742 semi-auto.  It is easy on my shoulder. Yeah, you've probably heard that you can't hit a dinner plate at 100 yards with a 742/7400/740.  That is those "They Brothers" talking.  I have never fired a jacketed bullet in that rifle.

The throat is too short on my 308s for the 200 grain bullets.  However, my15" 308 Encore barrel loves the Saeco #301 (210 grain).

The 30-06 also likes Lyman 311284 bullets.  About 220 grains with a gas check.

Harold Clark

PS:  I'm hoping to make it to the Range on Friday.  I will report back on my findings with the 140 grain plain base bullet.

Hey, Sweetwater, I'm in the market for a 41 mold that is 215 or 220 grains.  I have a 14" barrel with Lyman sights that I'm dying to shoot, but I won't pay the price for "store bought" cast bullets and there is no sense at all in shooing jacketed ones.

[Sweetwater]

"Sweetwater, for years I wanted a 35 caliber in a Marlin.  I traded off my 444 Marlin last year.  My old shoulder is way too soft for even light loads with the 300 grain cast bullet.  You do have the best of both sides of the 30/30."

My Marlin is 41Mag. My 356W is BB94 Winchester. Sorry for any confusion there. My 32WSpcl is 94Win. Never had a 444. Once thought I'd like to have one converted to 411JDJ, but with economy - no funds for such a project. A nice Marlin in 35 Remington might suffice, but there is a wildcat on a 30-30 case called a 35 Maine Guide or a 350 Maine Guide or some such thing that tripped my trigger a long time ago. I've since forgotton most of the details. Obviously a 35 caliber on a 30-30 case. I'm a nut for 35's and anything Maine(my first home) and Wyoming(my second home).
Though I doubt I'll ever leave North Idaho, my heart is elsewhere.



"Hey, Sweetwater, I'm in the market for a 41 mold that is 215 or 220 grains.  I have a 14" barrel with Lyman sights that I'm dying to shoot, but I won't pay the price for "store bought" cast bullets and there is no sense at all in shooing jacketed ones."

Totally agree on the "no sense shooting jacketed ones." There is truly nothing that a cast bullet won't handle in that barrel. I used to have one of those barrels. It was a bull barrel and it loved that NEI mold I used to have. That was a 275gr mold, with my alloy it became 283gr with the gas check. It was thumper for sure. Never left a 200m Ram standing! The only load that made the 41Mag kick like a 44mag!

PM me and I can send you some samples, not a problem.
I have an RCBS 41-210FNPB still on hand. It's not seen much use, as we do like the Saeco 215gr mold a little better due to it's wider, longer nose. The RCBS bullet has a thicker driving band. They are both the same weight within 1 grain and same length with one big grease groove and a crimping groove.
I also have an old Lyman #41028 RNFPPB. Generally it comes in at 216gr.
It's been a real good mold and I shot a lot of silhouettes with it years ago, though it isn't the most accurate of the bunch, it was adequate. Very much looks like a cowboy action bullet and is the same shape as the original 38-40 and 44-40 bullets. Shoots as good as I do! LOL!
I've used it mainly for plinking with all my 41's and my 19year-old son lives it in my/his Marlin rifle. We play duets on the 50 yard gong at the range. He shoots the Marlin and I shoot my Great-Grandfather's original '73 Winchester (circa1883) 38WCF (38-40). We shoot one beside the other, so an action is being worked as the gong is being rung by the other. It's real music and very noticeable if one is missed! Like a sour note on a trumpet! They run at nearly the same velocity, the same noise level, and pure fun.
I AM SPOILED!

Probably off topic here. Sorry.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[haroldclark]

Range Report on new Plain Base Bullet and Saeco #316 without a gas check.  3/27/09  By Harold Clark  It is not good........

The new Saeco mold #630 is a 140 grain plain base bullet.  Powder was 12.6 gr. Blue Dot.  Weighed out on an RCBS Electronic powder dispenser.  The bullets were seated in a single stage Forster Press.

The Rifle is a Marlin Cowboy 30/30 with Ballard Rifling and 24" barrel.  The Velocity of the bullet is about 1700 fps.  I think the Velocity was the problem.

I tried to sight in at 200 meter chickens and Turkeys at 421 Yards (Steel Silhouette targets).  At both distances, I had shots all over the berm and below.  I estimate at 200 meters, the group was about 6 feet (Feet not inches).  At the Turkeys, it got worse by two times.

I had the Saeco #316 bullet without the gas check installed with the same load above and with 16 grains of Alliant 2400.    Same performance as above. 


I had the Saeco #630 Plain Base bullet with 16 grains of Alliant 2400. 8 to 10 foot groups. 

I suspect the bullet is tumbling (key holing) when it loses it's stability (if it ever stabilized).

After all the non gas checked bullets were tested, I fired at 421 Yard Turkeys with the standard #316 gas checked bullet weighing 150 Grains...   It was deadly in spite of the wind and mirage shifting directions.  With a good spotter I took 8 out of 10 Turkeys in the first 10 shots and then proceeded to take out more of them, just because it felt good.  The two misses were my error.
My standard 30/30 load is with 12.6 Grains of Blue Dot with normally sized necks and the 150 grain Saeco #316 with a gas check and sized to .310". 

I think I'm going to have a range loading day with ready to load brass and different powders.  The main concern is the velocity.  I think I will start at 1100 fps and work my way up to an accurate load. 

I normally don't use a filler of any type and have great luck with my gas checked 30/30s and many other calibers with high velocity.

I did try the 30/30 neck sizing with the 308 Win die.  The brass neck thickness varied greatly.  15 of the 40 cases would allow the bullet to fall into the case when set upright.  I resized those 15 with a 30/30 neck sizing die.  They shot terribly, too.  The 25 cases that would hold the bullet didn't shoot well.

The final shooting was done with my standard 30/30 load of 12.6 Grains of Blue Dot with normally sized necks and the 150 grain Saeco #316 with a gas check and sized to .310". 

[Sweetwater]

Great report!!
I can feel your frustration and wish I could offer something from my records. The best my 32 would do without gas checks on a gas check shank was about 1350fps. Your lighter bullets might get more velocity before going to pieces. It worked with Unique and Green Dot, and might work with your Red Dot. I never tried any. I did use a medium crimp. Light crimps didn't seem to work well at all and no crimp was a disaster. I did notice that I have a note to retry a load of 4198 at close to 2000fps. These are all "book" velocities from a Lyman #45 reloading manual, as I did not have my Chrony when I did this.
I'm curious as to how your plain base would respond to a slower powder like 4227 or 4198 or whatever i.e. less violent takeoff, maybe less "going out of shape" in the throat and first part of the barrel? Just a thought. Something I read once. Your Red Dot is real quick and has a real snappy pressure rise. BUT, you've done more of this than I have and I find all this real interesting. Next chapter?

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it. It all depends on how much you want to shoot and how accurate you want your load to be. bullets designed for gas check shot without them will allow your gun to go bang but dont look for under 2 inch accuracy at a 100 yards. Shooting a plain based bullet at 1500 cast 14 bhn is right on the line. It may work and it may lead. Alot will depend on the quality of your barrel if the bullet is sized right for your gun and the powder used and how many you plan on shooting. If its just a few to sight in and then go hunting it wont be a problem. But if your going to go out and shoot a hundred or more in a sitting your probably going to have leading problems. Youd be much better off in that case either dropping to about 1200 or going to a bullet in the 18-20bhn range. Me, i dont fool with plain based bullets in rifles at over 1300 fps unless its for one of those sight in and go hunting deals. Another thing to keep in mind is that if your pushing your bullets faster then 12-1300 fps a gas checked bullet will 99 times out of a 100 outshoot a plain base. What i would do is work up two differnt loads for the gun one for hunting with a gas checked bullet and one for rolling beer cans with a plain base if buying gas checks is to expensive for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

one more thing i forgot to mention is bullet lube. This is no place for a pour bullet lube. In a handgun you can for the most part get by with about any lube. Rifles are differnt, a good lube can make all the differnce in both leading and accuacy. This is no place for crap like lees tumble lube or any of the hard commercail lubes. One more thing conserning powder choise. Its a fine balancing act. You want to use the slowest burning powder that will not create problems from downloading. This about eliminates all the ball powders. 1200 fps can be handled easily with a bunch of different handgun powders but when you stepping up to 1500 things change and pistol powders can cause leading. Ball powders burn a little to hot and dont take to downloading. So your choises are limited. Ill give you one suggestion to get you started. 4198

[crash87]

"A nice Marlin in 35 Remington might suffice, but there is a wildcat on a 30-30 case called a 35 Maine Guide or a 350 Maine Guide or some such thing that tripped my trigger a long time ago. I've since forgotton most of the details. Obviously a 35 caliber on a 30-30 case. I'm a nut for 35's and anything Maine(my first home) and Wyoming(my second home)."
Interesting you brought that up as I finally was able to locate the original article on that wildcat. If anybody does't mind me posting off topic for just a bit? It was called the 350 Maine guide gun simply because He, (Ken Waters), felt there were still a good number of old 32-40 rifles in the New England woods with a good many with bad bores that could be rebored to a usefull and more powerful cartridge/caliber and still be used. There are two versions, the first would be for a bored out 32-40 utilizing a 38-55 case and having a .340 neck length. Apparently, soon after development, 38-55 brass was discontinued. So the wildcat never really got off the ground. Then, figuring there were probably as many or more 30-30 and 32 Win Specials ready for restoration, he came up with the cartridge formed from a 32 special case resulting in a neck length of .320.
     I once had the urge to take a 30-30 and get it rechambered to a improved version, then, have the barrel rebored to a 35 cal. Of course then I saw the 350 Maine Guide was already out there. By going to 30-30 improved first, I would then be able to satisfy my curiosity on what kind of improvment I could really expect. Kind of killing two boar with one bullet. Going to the expense of all the outsourcing of work didn't really appeal to me, actually, my wallet as I already own a Marlin 336SC in 35 Rem. Realistically a duplication.
       Getting back on subject I recently purchaced a Like new Win. Legacy w/24" barrel. I just took delivery of a LBT .310 LCFN gc 170gr. I have about 200 cast of WW's to get started on load development. After getting "THE" load with this bullet and checks, I am then going to experiment witout checks to see what kind of results I get. All I have read on this post so far is very informative and appreciated.
   Interesting to me personally is the fact, that 30+ years have elapsed since the purchace of my first rifle, and Iv'e finally dicovered the "lowly ol 30-30", time to start making up for lost time. Thanks guy's. CRASH87

[Sweetwater]

Crash87 - WOW! Thanks for the input on the 350 Maine Guide. Duplication? Not in my book. From my perspective (and I am talking Lever Guns here) one is basically Marlin. The other is any Lever Gun. One is 350 Maine Guide and the other is 35 Remington. See? They don't even sound alike or use the same letters! LOL! Could probably chamber them both in my 356W and get things really exciting....my BB94 will cycle rimmed and rimless cases interchangeably.

LLoyd - always great input from you, sir. I'm playing with LBT Blue Soft right now, but haven't used it enough to draw many conclusions. My last box of 30 Cal gas checks was $9.87/1000. My 32 Cal gas checks were $16.00/1000 from Lyman about 15 years ago and I thought they were mismarked but I needed them.. Gas checks and primers are practically black market items where I live right now. There are no 30 Cal gas checks in the stores. There are no primers in the stores, except for shotgun. On Gunbroker, a gentleman a little North of Couer d'Alene has "many" listings for primers of all sizes in lots of 1000 and up to 5000. Prices are $60-$80/1000 for primers! gas checks are running in the $50/1000 arena. Yet, Sportsman's Warehouse and Black Sheep and Cabelas (Post Falls) are sold out of both. I know, it's pure Capitolism, which I do agree with, but smacks of greed, which I don't agree with. I can't do anything about conserving on primers, except don't shoot, and that doesn't work, so that brings me to the quest of conserving on gas checks. Partly due to cost and partly due to availability.

4198 is a great choice. Another powder that works well reduced is 4895. Hodgdon even wrote a piece about 4895 as it worked so well in reduced charges and many, many others don't.

Harold - when you were mentioning using a 308W die to size your necks....30WCF brass is much thinner than 308W brass, so couldn't see how that could help, unless you were overworking the brass with the 30WCF sizer. The 308W die being actually larger to start with. What am I missing here?

H'mm...I can pick up a clunker 30-30 for under $150. Bore it out for the 35 and shoot some LFN235grPB lead. Twist around 16" might let me shoot some pistol fodder reasonably, or maybe 14" and not go so small.
Always something.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[haroldclark]

I'm up to my ears in A computer (wife's computer- can't put that off or she gets all tense).  So, I'm going to be brief. I think it was WayneS that suggested using the 308 sizer to just touch the necks on the 30/30.  Knowing that the 30/30 brass is much thinner than the 308 Win, it sounded like a good idea.  Wayne uses that method with great success.  It didn't work out with my brass.  I did have 15 rounds with regular neck tension and it didn't work either.  So, gotta slow that bullet down. 

I will get it, one way or the other.  Thanks for all the input : To all of you, thanks.

Harold

I have had a great time shooting the 35 Whelen with cast bullets and taking 500 meter rams was a piece of cake with a 250 grain Saeco Bullet and 30 grains of H4227.  It got to be pretty painful after about 30 rounds.  I'm not a casual shooter.  If 50 is enough to shoot, then 150 is much better.  I now, limit my exposure to pain.

[haroldclark]

I have a 138 Grain Plain Base Saeco bullet that I have cast with the 3 to 1 mix with wheel weights and one Linotype.  The mold is a 4 cavity #630.  It is a flat base (No gas check shank).  The mold was brand new.  I cleaned it by boiling it in Spic & Span solution outdoors.  Within 5 or 6 fills the bullets started coming out great looking.  I cast 100 or so before I started keeping the ones to test with.  The Saeco mold was typical of my other 4 Cavity Saeco molds, "Perfect Casting".  All bullets dropped from the mold with a light tap on the hinge.

My rifle is a 24" Marlin 30-30 in the Cowboy Configuration with Ballard rifling.

I tried this bullet with velocities about 1800 fps a couple of months ago. The accuracy was not good at all.

Yesterday, I loaded with 7.5 Grains of Unique.  It shot about a 5" group on paper at 100 yards.  Not acceptable.  I loaded them at the Range.

Today, I loaded more 7.5 grain loads and shot about a 2 inch group at 75 yards.  I dropped the powder to 7.0 grains and the group came into 1 inch at 75 yards..  I shot at 200 meter Silhouette Chickens.  Once sighted for the distance, I never missed from my steady bench rest bags. 

We were going to shoot at 300 meter pigs, so I jumped past the inaccurate 7.5 grain load to 8.0 grains of Unique.  It was as accurate as the 7 grains.  We moved to 300 meter pigs.

The combination load would take pigs very nicely. (knock them off the rail)  If I did my part fighting the wind and mirage, Pigs were sure hits.  There were wind gusts up to 25 mph.  At 300 meters some calls were made by my spotter to hold 1.5 foot left and we hit the pig dead center.  The spotter is good.............

According to Lyman manual estimates and the Quickload Software, the bullet is moving around 1445 fps.

I rarely shoot on paper targets anymore.  If I can hit Chickens and Pigs on the rifle silhouette range, that is accurate for my purposes. 

Next Tuesday, I will move out to the Turkeys at 385 Meters (421 yards).  I think it will do it just fine.

I will be shooting this load and bullet in my Contender 30-30 next week too.

So far, I'm very pleased.

Harold Clark