Need photos of Verbruggen 3-pdrs while at Jumel Mansion

[cannonmn]

The two Verbruggen 1776 3-pounders now at Watervliet Arsenal Museum were once displayed outside at the Morris-Jumel Mansion in Manhattan.  I'm in need of photos of those guns as they were displayed at the Mansion.  I am contacting the Mansion as well but I thought someone might have some, maybe Lion's Paw or somebody?

This is part of a larger research project.  The Watervliet Verbruggens were for some reason overlooked in all previous studies of the Verbruggen guns.  To further complicate things, there's another 1776 3-pounder Verbruggen on display in Perth, Ontario, Canada, that has the same registry (serial) number as one of the Watervliet pair, number 6.  Go figure.



Here's my slideshow of guns at Watervliet, including the Verbruggens.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums%2020/?action=view&current=c85640fc.pbw

[thelionspaw]

First: I know how everyone reads cannonmn post, so I thought I'd slip this in before I answered his questions.

I want to thank everyone for their concern regarding my absense and subsequent condition. It really is gratifying to realize that so many of you actually read and possibly look foward to my drivel and inane mental wanderings in posts. As Mark Twain once submitted to a newspaper, "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated".

What follows, are bits & pieces regarding the Jumel cannons.

16 Nov. 1904; D.A.R. Magazine.: "Exercises at Fort Washington attending the mounting of a cannon taken from the grounds of the Jumel Mansion and removed to Fort Washington. A salute was fired as the cannon was unveiled".

1905; St. Nicholas . A book by Mary Mapes Dodge.: "On the sloping grounds there are several old cannons".

May 14, 1916; New York Times.: "..........one of the original Revolutionary War cannon lies in the sod in the doorway".

1970s; "When there were cannons in front of the mansion".

I found a photograph somewhere that had a cannon on a wheeled carriage on the lawn, close to the steps, just to the right of the entrance as you view the building. It was so dark and blotched, it looked more like an ink-blot test.

If information cannot be gotten from the Arsenal, try the Jumel Chapter of the D.A.R. and the chapter of Colonial Dames. They share the Mansion. The Museum of the City of New York may have come into the picture. Then there is The New York Historical Society and the New York Public Library. Those are just off the top of my head.

If I were you, I would peruse the eBay listings for Post Cards and enter Jumel Mansion. That would be the easiest and probably most gratifying approach.

rc

[thelionspaw]

You wrote:"To further complicate things, there's another 1776 3pdr Verbruggen on display in Perth, Ontario Canada, that has the same registry (serial) number as one of the Watervliet pair, number 6. Go figure."

That's so simple, it pains me to write this. It's a Chinese knock-off copy.

Richard

[GGaskill]

This postcard shows where they were but not much else.

[cannonmn]

Thanks for the pc photo.  So that's the Morris-Jumel mansion.  I saved it then zoomed in on it, and you can clearly see two small cannons mounted on field carriages, about even with the right and left front corners of the building, but a little in front of it.  The clothing looks like 1890's, is that pc dated by any chance?

[Bob Smith]

The Verbruggens did not use serial numbers as such- that is one gun, one number as the Carron Company di- but used the numbering system most other British gunfounders were using at the time- each different calibre and pattern had their own number sequence. That being said, the numbers are early in the sequence, and early in the Verbruggens gunfounding career in Woolwich, (and they seem to have only started on 3 pounders in 1775) so I expect mistakes could be made. Couldn't be a damaged 16 I suppose?

Bob Smith

[cannonmn]

Thanks Bob.  I'm sure someone of the several folks interested in the twins at Watervliet will go in and study the trunnions up close.  All I have to go on is photos taken under non-ideal conditions.  The left and right trunnions of these small guns usually bear different numbers, so I'd have to spend some time with my photos to try to determine which is which, right vs. left.  As I recall, the number that's regarded as the registry number for purposes of identification of an individual gun is on the left trunnion.  Mr. Strach's unpublished study from 1986 is the most comprehensive work to date on the "known" Verbruggen 3-pounders, save the fact that he didn't know of the existance of the pair at Watervliet (they were just being returned there as he finished his study.)

[cannonmn]

Bob Pfeil of Watervliet Arsenal Museum (great guy by the way, extremely helpful) sent me these pix that date from ca. 1912, showing the two cannons at the Jumel Mansion.  Top is the one id'd in the records as "WAT 00208" and bottom one is "00209."

[KABAR2]

I just love how the box on the carriage is being used for...............A PLANTER!!!!!!

[GGaskill]

It looks to me that those are pictures of the same gun from different angles.  They both appear to be at the right side of the house though perhaps they are not at the same positions as on the post card.

[cannonmn]

same gun from different angles.

Good eye, you are correct, I never questioned what I was told, must be my military training.  You can clearly see some of the same coloration/paint loss/whatevers on the wheel in the foreground in both pix, from about 8 O'clock to about 12 O'clock position.