Anybody else share an aversion to clones?

[MGMorden]

So I'm bored at work and figured I'd bring my random musing over here. 

I was reading about the Bersa Thunder handguns and discovered that they were a (good) clone of a Walther P88.  This kinda turned me off on them, and for no good reason that I can explain.  I've realized lately that no matter the quality I've got some aversion to a cloned design.  For a decent budget target pistol I saw several people recommend the EAA Witness Elite Match pistols, but they're a clone of a CZ-75.  I want a Hi Power and the FEG versions are supposed to be decently priced, but they're not a Browning.  Now I was interested in the Bersa but the Walther copy info turned me off.

The exception I do make is for 1911's - about enough companies make those now that it's hard to say anymore what a "real" 1911 is (and certain outfits turn out much better versions than Colt). 

Besides the 1911 though, I think it's just a feeling that I'm buying an imitation of a gun rather than a quality piece.  Anybody else share this feeling or am I just an oddball in this?

[Savage]

Nope, don't share your aversion to clones. Frequently the clones are improvements over the originals. 
Savage

[Brett]

Nope, don't share your aversion to clones. Frequently the clones are improvements over the originals. 
Savage

+1
 
So then we can assume you don't like any 1911 or AR not made by Colt.

Send in the clones.

[MGMorden]

Nope, don't share your aversion to clones. Frequently the clones are improvements over the originals. 
Savage

+1
 
So then we can assume you don't like any 1911 or AR not made by Colt.

Send in the clones.

Well, the 1911 as mentioned I make an exception for .

[williamlayton]

Aversion? Nope!
However, I always go back too the originals. I like Colts--Colts are the original. Do I own others? Yup! I like STI's for a number of reasons---which are, that they are very close to Colt's and have some better parts. My Colts have better parts.
I like Sigs because of the design and they are reliable, with good parts and workmanship.
If all you can afford is the clones, then get the clones---as I said in another thread, my Martini would not taste as good with a clone as with my Walther on myownself.
Don't make nobody a bad person, but, is just my aversion.
Blessings 

[jhm]

YES :  But on these conditions if the clone is just a resemblence of a original to only LOOK LIKE ONE I leave it alone, looks dont make it function, do your homework before just laying down your cash, if it is really to be carried daily to protect your life what is your life worth the real thing or just a look a like.   Jim

[Mohawk]

  I have a Taurus Model 80(Model 10 clone) .38 that after 32 years of hot loads thinks it is a S&W Heavy Duty. I have tried to kill this thing and have not.

[Robert357]

There are clones and then there are clones.

For example, when John Browning designed his Colt Model 1903 in 32 acp, he offered it to FN, but they said no as it would compete with the FN model 1900 sales.  But after a while they said they would like the same basic firearm, but in a larger size and larger caliber so they could offer it as a military contract firearm.  John M. Browning gave them what they wanted in a 9mm Browning long.  Then FN sold it to a number of armies.  One was Sweden and they loved it, but wanted to manufacture it under license in Sweden and the Husqavarna Model 1907.  Then in WW1, a lot of countries needed handgun.  In Spain they made cheap knockoffs of the Colt 1903 that were generally known as a Ruby.  Some of the Spanish Rubies were better than others. 

I own several Colt 1903's, an FN1903, a Husquavarna 1907, but no Rubies. 

I don't own a Browning High Power, but I do own two different styles of FEG 9mm Browning HP clones.  FEG use to manufacture under license HP's, but the two I own are slightly different from the original HP design.  I love them both and they have many things in common with the "true" HP.  They are clones, but worthy of owning as fine firearms.

there are clones that are quality pieces of craftsmanship and then there are clones not worth owning.  I will purchase the ones that are good firearms at reasonable prices.

[Autorim]

I judge firearms just like cars, trucks, and other outdoor gear with an eye towards quality, function and value. Of course, when you buy Smith and Wesson revolvers or certain models of Ruger , Browning or other brands, you are a bit more assured of less depreciation or maybe some appreciation.

It helps to educate yourself and be an intelligent buyer if you expect the firearm to hold monetary value - then don't pay too much.

IMHO most clones will probably not hold value like the originals although they may shoot just fine. Develop a good relationship with pawn shop/gun shop friends and they can help a lot.

[Mikey]

Clones?  When I was practicing psychology I had far too many patients to be able to help them all and went to a friend who was in research to discuss it.  He suggested cloning and it sounded good so I took his offer.  He took samples and I came back two weeks later to find a perfect clone of myself.  We both began practicing again and it seemed like the perfect choice until the clone began using profanity so badly it chased away all my patients.  I went back to my friend for advice and the guy told me just to kill him as there is no law against killing clones. So I took him to the Empire State Building and when nobody was looking I tossed him off the roof.  I felt so much better.  But, when I got to the lobby, two cops were there to arrest me for a 1013 - making a obsene clone fall. 

A clone is supposed to be a identical copy - just another of the same thing.  A clone for a Colt 1911A1 is another Colt 1911A1.  1911s made by someone other than colt would be 1911s made by another manufacturer -some would have variations, such as the grip style of the STI, or the triggers of the Kimber, or the oblonged 'tactical' hammers of Springfield, and the like. 

The Bersa may look somewhat like a PPK but it isn't a PPK, it's a Bersa.  The Makarov isn't a PP but is similar in appearance, and neither are clones of each other.  The FEG is not a P35, just similar.  Lots of the original patents on firearms designs are long out of date and cannot be re-instated, which means their designs are up for sale and manufacture by whoever wants to.  Does this make them clones - only if the manufacturing result is identical to the original design, hence FEG (for example) which is not identical to the P35 is a FEG, not a P35.

Does that sound right or do I have to throw myself off the roof?

[Hank08]

Reminds me of a friend who wanted a PPK, at the time Manurin & Walther PPKs were available.
The Walther was several hundred dollars more but he wanted and got the Walther. About a month later there was an expose of the Walther PPKs and it turned out that since WW2 all the "Walther" PPKs had been made in the Manurin factory in France so make sure you know what your getting.
H08

[Tom W.]

If you want a Colt, get a Colt.  Kimbers make some nice pistols, but deep down inside there will be that nagging voice saying " I really wanted  a "such and so" but I got this at a really good price...

[SHOOTALL]

Browning arms , do they make anything ? How many different places have their guns been made ? and by who ?
The jap copy of a 98 is supose to be the strongest  made .

[mcwoodduck]

I find it funny that you mention the CZ -75.  It is a clone of the Browning Hi Power only with the rails reversed.
The EAA witness and the Trafalio are improved CZ designs as they can have major caliber changes 9 to 45 in the same frame.
The argintine version of the 1911 has some additions that were added to custom and higher end 1911 later like the external extractor.
I guess you want to talk about a cheap clone where they use "pot" metal instead of steel or Aluminium.
The eastern European copies are just that machined copies but they do not have the fit and finish of the Brownings or Walthers.
When I was in College in the early 90's the knock offs were big and friends bought a few of them.  We would tear them apart and fill them with Flitz lay an old towel on our laps and cycle the actions, hand laping them while watching TV.  When the gun be came too gunky to cycle we would clean them and start all over again.  Once they smoothed out we would then work on the feed ramps and then shoot them.  They were functional guns that worked for 1/3 the price of a really pretty browning or walther.
I guess it also would depend on what I wanted the gun for.  Depending my life on it.... or just having a plinker.  Pot metal = plinker for me
good quality design and materials, once I know that it works 100000000% of the time, I would depend my life on it.  I also do the same with the name brand guns. S&W, Sig, Walther, Colt, & Browning handguns that I own.
What does frost me is the Clones thaqt are not licesened copies out of China of the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500 that are purely to steel sales from them.

[Robert357]

Clones?  ....The FEG is not a P35, just similar.  Lots of the original patents on firearms designs are long out of date and cannot be re-instated, which means their designs are up for sale and manufacture by whoever wants to.  Does this make them clones - only if the manufacturing result is identical to the original design, hence FEG (for example) which is not identical to the P35 is a FEG, not a P35.

Does that sound right or do I have to throw myself off the roof?

Even cloned animals have some slight variations due to genetic breakdown over time.  Is something a "clone" if it has mostly interchangeable parts?  What about if on the exterior it looks remarkably like the original version?

Even among what are commonly called "High Powers," there are lots of differences during WWII manufacture in different countries in the area of the sights; does this make some of them not High Powers?  For some reference look at the variations found here  http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg17-e.htm

How about if none of the parts are interchangable, like my FN1903 and my Colt 1903.  Both were designed by John M Browning and his patents were licensed in the manufacture.  Actually the manufacturing qualify of my FN 1903 is higher than that of the Colt 1903, in my heretical opinion.  Are they clones?  Maybe they are daughter and mother?  When I put them side by side and strip them down, I see huge similarities except for the size of the parts and the magazine.

I don't think you need to throw yourself off the roof, but I have a little looser definition of what a "clone" is than you do.  That allows for healthy disagrement.

As to the FEG versus FN  High Power, I thought that I would provide one person's comparision on the FEG  P9M to the High Power.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg130-e.htm   You seem to put a lot of importance on the safety lever as to if something is a High Power or not. 

As a collector of pre-WW-1 pistols in 32 acp, I have seen all kinds of firearm manufacturers claiming that they were selling "Browning" or Browning Patent firearms.  As such, when someone calls something s "Browning,"  I just smile. 

I have a "Baby Browning" in 25 ACP that is "almost" identical to an FN Baby Browning in 25 ACP.   Both were made in Belguim by FN, one was sold in the USA by Browning.  There were also "Baby Brownings" sold in the USA manufactured in the USA by PSP and Bauer.  What is a "Baby Browning?"  I know the one I have is a Baby Browning, and I suspect the others with their interchangible parts are also Baby Brownings.   There are clones and then there are clones.

[44 Man]

When you are talking finishes (that the 'clones' are not as well finished as the originals) neither are the originals anymore.  The newer S&W's are not finished like the S&W's of old, Colt's either for that matter. (Unless you get one from the custom shop) I like the SAA clones, many have different features to offer.  But that said there is a certain pride of ownership knowing you have a 'real' Colt or whatever.  If you can afford the original, fine.  If not, enjoy what you can afford.  I've been in both places in my life and will probably be again.  44 Man

[torpedoman]

99% of them are"clones" of something, bolt action = mauser clone , lever action =henry clone, revolver= colt clone

[teamnelson]

Choosing an original over a clone has not been a $ issue for me. I've never felt myself settling for 2nd best when I bought a foreign made version of a proven design. I guess I figure Brazilians and Italians like quality guns too.

[williamlayton]

Well let's see here.
I think I am referring to the "Clones Fall" which is interesting as it touches on the therapy necesssary to reassure those of us who are "original" in our nature and require a security blanket of sorts.
It is in our nature to wish for the best and require that all things work as well as we may percieve the originals to function.
Do Californian clones function as well with their distinct, although, well engineered, safety, in the form of a firreing pin block.
Can you call it a clone? Is it a clone if it has a Slant pro sight instead of the military sights?
I digress to the words of wisdom preached to the known world in 1911 by JMB, "If it don't say Colt it aint the real thing."
Now in fairness to those who are realist and in desperate need of the stimulating and rarely used advice of Mikey, PHD, I would suggest beer and pretzels down at the "YNOT Bar and CAR WASH".
But since we cannot interact because of time and space it may be more desirable to return to the obvious.
And, what you may ask, is the obvious?
I would ask you then to tell me what the hell are we disccussin as I got lost in this haze and forgot.
Blessings 

[Savage]

See, there you go musing again, William. However, this time I share your confusion, well---------------what was the question again?
Savage

[Lloyd Smale]

some of the guns you mentioned are fine guns. The only adversion i have is to crappy guns and guns that the company doesnt stand behind there product well.  whether they be the originals or copys.

[jlwilliams]

  When is a clone not a clone?  For example, military guns.  M1 Garands, carbines, 1911s were all made by a number of different companies during the war.  The Winchester could be called the 'original' M1 carbine, so would an IBM or a National Postal Meter be a 'clone'?  There were seven different companies (maybe more) making Lugers, are non Mausers 'clones'?  I don't think so.  Take it over to vehicles, the Willy's Jeep is often considered the 'original' (it wasn't, the original was made by Bantam but the gov gave the contract to Willy's, killing the Bantam company) but they were made by Ford too.  Is a '44 military Ford jeep a clone?  Again, no.  There have been many examples of two different companies making the same thing.  I know that some of them have been 'me too' copycats, but there are some that are not so clear.

  I'm not sure I really have a point here.  I'm just adding to the musings as I drink coffee on a rainy Sunday morning.

  PS, the Luger thing.  I was told that about Lugers by a collector who knows WAY more than I about Lugers and old guns in general.  The context of the conversation was an interesting note on serial numbers.  The different companies numbered their own guns by their own standards.  Some re-started the numbers every year.  So, there are some number (he knew, I forget) of lugers that have the same numbers form two different companies and some with the same number more than once from the same company.  It's unlikely you will ever get two the same in your hand, they are scatered around the world, but it could happen more than once.  Try to regulate that one.

[Swampman]

For CAS I actually prefer the clones.

[coyotejoe]

Reminds me of a friend who wanted a PPK, at the time Manurin & Walther PPKs were available.
The Walther was several hundred dollars more but he wanted and got the Walther. About a month later there was an expose of the Walther PPKs and it turned out that since WW2 all the "Walther" PPKs had been made in the Manurin factory in France so make sure you know what your getting.
H08

I've come across that one before and it is simply not true. The Walther plant was moved to Manurin France at the end of the war because the old plant would be in East Germany and Walthers were built at Manurin for a few years. However, Walther built a new plant in West Germany in the early 1950's and "genuine Walthers" were again built in Germany and have been ever since.

[williamlayton]

There are some exciting things happening with new versions of the old originals, I would agree.
STI, SVI, WILSON, NIGHTHAWK, ECT are fine examples of good improvements too old favorites. Better parts, better fitting---now this fitting thing can lead to arguements not designed for this thread, lets be aware of this---better techniques make for better/different/somewhat different remakes of the originals.
I am leaning on the basic old Colt .45 of JMB design for my discussion--though other designs go thru the same changes.
I am in favor of anything that improves on reliability while keeping the same design chateristics intact for my needs.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

coyotejoe, better check , the walther was made by Manurin . They were built there for Walther , Built there after Walther had a new plant and after Walther and Manurin parted ways . S&W also makes them .

[coyotejoe]

Nope, after Walther set up in West Germany those Manurin made guns were marked "Manurin", not Walther. The S&W Walthers carry both names. But that is a good example of a true clone. Some people seem to want to call any compact double action auto a Walther clone even though there is no resemblance inside or out. I seen the Makarov and the PA-63 refered to as clones of the Walther PP just because they are more or less the same size and double action.

[Robert357]

....Some people seem to want to call any compact double action auto a Walther clone even though there is no resemblance inside or out. I seen the Makarov and the PA-63 refered to as clones of the Walther PP just because they are more or less the same size and double action.

A friend has one of the S&W Walthers and we comparied it to my FEG PA-63, they seem to have a lot in common, although they are different calibers.  FEG use to manufacture Walther PPK's under license from Walther, before they made some modifications and called their creation a PA-63.

For example one gunsmithing course seems to cover both.......http://smartflix.com/store/video/3647/Walther-PPKS-and-FEG-PA63-Pistol-Armorers-Course

Here is a review of both with field stripped pictures of the two  http://www.ramanon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54626

I think calling an FEG PA-63 a Walther clone is pretty accurate.

[Travis Morgan]

The EAA witness pistols are damn good.