Author Topic: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun  (Read 1410 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« on: May 21, 2009, 12:54:12 PM »
This is a copy of a posting I did yesterday on the CMH forum.

The purpose of this posting is to provide additional information on one of the few surviving Vergruggen 3-pounder guns. I first saw this small bronze cannon barrel in a photo my esteemed friend, the late Val Forgett Jr. showed me in 1993. At that time it was in the midst of a wonderful collection of a total of fourteen small bronze guns and mortars in the Bapty's (famous UK movie prop/special effects company) collection. Val said formerly, the group of weapons had been in a church in Fairwick, St. John, Surrey, UK, where they had served as a memorial to the Battle of Waterloo. Val had purchased the collection and they were enroute to the US, and he said some would be for sale. They all had great natural patinas. I have a photo of some of them as they appeared in England, and plan to add it to this discussion when I find it.

After the collection cleared customs, I visited Val at his Union City NJ warehouse were the cannons were on display. By that time they had all been polished bright, which did not make me happy, however they were still nice, rare, original bronze cannons. Val gave me prices on the few he was selling at that time.

One I liked a lot that was not for sale at that time was a Verbruggen 3-pounder bronze gun. I later determined that this gun was probably the one described in Melvin H. Jackson and Charles de Beer, EIGHTEENTH CENTURY GUNFOUNDING, Smithsonian Inst. Press, Washington, 1974, pp. 156: "In a Private Collection, England, ...21. 3-pounder (?) Calibre 72-73mm; length 121 cm. 'P. Verbruggen Fecit, A. 1782.' Device with R on chase (Duke of Richmond, Master of Ordnance), Royal Cypher of George III on first reinforce."

The Jackson and de Beer description omits a few details of the markings which are in my notes from my visit to the warehouse on 22 November 1994. I recorded the markings on the trunnions which are: Left trunnion: "No. 92" and right trunnion: letter "P" over "J43." The number "3" was marked near the vent.

In case anyone is interested, the thirteen other small bronze weapons I inspected and recorded that day included:

a. Pair of small bronze mortars with bulbous breeches, spherical chambers
b. Spanish eprouvette mortar dated 1799
c. One-pounder French Perrier (naval swivel gun) by LeCourant dated "3 Anee"
d. Another, same type, same year, by Ranius
e. Spanish 3-pounder mountain howitzer, Model 1781 (?)
f. Pair of small mortars with a royal cypher featuring crown and intertwined "F4" (perhaps Danish)
g. French Gomer mortar dated 1840, Cypher of Louis Philippe
h. Pair of Egyptian rifled mountain howitzers, Beaulieu system, ca. 1860's, marked with typical Islamic markings of the period
i. French ship's light one-pounder Espingole, on later wheeled, steel lifesaving gun carriage, as converted for use in the French lifesaving service.
j. Chinese rifled mountain howitzer ca. 1860's, Beaulieu system rifling, with large Chinese characters deeply engraved on top.

Over the next few years, I was lucky enough to acquire five of the pieces listed, but unfortunately the Verbruggen was one that got away.

Further info on the late Val Forgett, Jr., CMH member, is at the link. Val was a giant and pioneer among arms makers, dealers, and collectors. He had an uncanny knack for finding extremely rare and historic arms, and he shopped worldwide. He kept a few items but made the vast majority available to collectors like me, for what I always thought were very fair prices. He didn't try to "gouge" people when he came up with a great piece. If a collector needed time to pay for an upper-end piece, all he had to do was ask. I availed myself of this wonderful interest-free service on many occasions, and in some cases, I simply would not have been able to buy the piece without his help. Many incredible pieces he found, he donated to major museums.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Val+Forgett+The+Passing+Of+A+Legend

If anyone is interested, the five pieces I bought were those identified above as C, E, H, and J.



Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 03:55:24 PM »
John, this is an interesting post; I knew of Val Forgett's history concerning Navy Arms, and black powder reproduction firearms from reading about him in gun mags, but I never knew about his involvement in collecting artillery. Dan Johnson's article on him it makes it clear that he could aptly be described with the sometimes overused sobriquet of "Renaissance man", his passing is regrettable. 

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 05:09:36 PM »
I was lucky enough to meet Val Forgett once years ago I can only say the firearms & collecting community

lost a gentleman,  I had the misfortune of meeting his son about a year after Val's death all I can say is if

you can't say something good about someone.................
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2009, 12:47:24 AM »
Allen, musta been a bad day for him or something, I've talked to VF III many times and never had less than a pleasant conversation, so you might want to try again sometime on a different day.  Everybody can have a bad day.  VFIII has merged three companies into one, I think that's the way it works now, and I'm sure trying to keep them all doing something productive is a challenge.  He has his hands full with the small arms and rare shooter's ammo businesses and he isn't involved in artillery, so if you wanted to talk about that I'm sure it would have been a short conversation, but I'd suggest trying again sometime in a different circumstance, or let me help.   If you google him the first thing you will find is a myriad of contributions he's made, and of course I could be wrong, but if you ran them down I'd bet they are the same causes you and I would donate to if we were able to do so.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2009, 04:03:14 AM »
Cannonmn,

Your right everyone has a bad day, I'll chalk it up to that, and say no more.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2009, 06:08:45 AM »
Funny, I had the same experience as Kabar with Val's son.  Of course I had just pointed out that the tack laden MH carbine marked VR 1908 he was trying to sell me was counterfiet.  VR stands for Victoria Regina and Victoria died in 1901.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2009, 11:46:22 AM »
Quote
Funny, I had the same experience as Kabar with Val's son.  Of course I had just pointed out that the tack laden MH carbine marked VR 1908 he was trying to sell me was counterfiet.  VR stands for Victoria Regina and Victoria died in 1901.

That's an interesting question.  I would have thought 1908 would be too late for a manufacturing date for a MH, but that in fact looks like the end date, looking at this site.  I couldn't readily understand how the VR mark and date of 1908 would occur together, but I just skimmed over this site.  Good pix on it though.  I don't know anything about MH rifles, that's why I looked up the site.

http://www.martinihenry.co.uk/

I also saw from another disc. board-fake MH's are made in Kabul, and collectors call 'em "Khyber copies."  They frequently have late dates plus "VR" so maybe that's the story behind the item DD was looking at.

Offline Double D

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Re: Val Forgett Jr.'s Verbruggen 3-pounder gun
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2009, 04:36:35 PM »
The better Martini sight is www.martinihenry.com.  Military Martini's mostly for colonial use were made after Queen Victoria's death.  Not a lot of records were kept on them at that late date.

Genuine Martini Henry's made after 1901 are not common, but do exist.