Author Topic: A few questions and doubts on mold order?  (Read 1543 times)

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Offline Wiking

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A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« on: May 06, 2009, 12:00:10 PM »
I slugged the Winchester today, it turned out fine I think. I filled a case with lead just short of the case mouth. I measured some of my once-fired brass and the readings were between 2.020" and 2.024" (the ones I have that's been fired more times were about 2.035". The one I used was 2.021" thinking I can always trim the longer ones. I'll send you the lead-filled case as stated in the instructions.

In regards to nose length on the Freedom Arms .357 (I want a 180gr FNGC) I didn't have a crimped case as my .357 dies are at a friends house. I measured 30 Starline virgin brass and picked one of average length. I measured the case to cylinder end at 0.523", using a case which measured 1.276". Is this sufficient or should I pick up my dies and do it properly?

I also have a few other questions:

1. I do have a lot of wheel weights, but in the future I might be forced to use an alloy of 50/50 WWs and pure/range lead. Will this affect bullet size as cast?

2. Will differences in casting temperature affect bullet size?

3. In the .357 will shooting a few jacketed rounds in between have any effect on accuracy etc. on the cast bullets when using your Blue Soft lube? I ask because I have some 125gr high pressure "bragging" loads that I like to shoot once in a while.

4. Since the mold is made after gun specs I assume I should use an over-size sizer die when installing gas check and lubing. Am I right?

5. You state that when using blue soft one never has to clean the bore. Why is this?

6. Would it be best to use my 2 LBT molds simultaneously or should I only use on at a time?

7. In regards to the .30-30 I can't decide which to get - the 150gr LFN or the 170gr LFN. I know rifle twist has something to do with this, but I do not know what twist a Winchester model 94 has. I rarely hunt with this rifle, but would like to be able to and I'm a sucker for recoil so I'm leaning towards the 170gr unless you think the 150gr would be better?

8. And what about crimp grooves on both calibers? Should I just use taper crimp on the .357 and nothing on the .30-30 (as with jacketed)?

9. Can I use the same top punch for both bullets? I have an RCBS lube-sizer.

10. I just read in another thread that the little tip on the slugs are meant to go into a cleaning rod and be pushed through by hand... I drove the slugs through with the tip first! Is that a problem???

I'm sorry for all these questions but please bear with me... I'm a big thinker, and a little afraid to either measure things wrongly or to leave out important information. When it come to my guns, reloading and casting I'm a bit perfectionistic... in case you hadn't noticed  ;)

Thank you Veral.


Offline Veral

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 08:13:47 PM »
An interesting bunch of questions, which at first I thought you should have asked in a personal email.  They are excellent for the forum readers!  I'll number each answer to match your numbered questions.

  Uncrimped brass is fine for measuring the cylinders capacity for nose length, as long as you can get your calipers to hit the edge.  I recommend turning in the crimp for only this reason.
1.  Wheel weights casts the smallest bullets of any alloy.  The fattest will be with linotype, and averages about .001 larger.  Order for WW and size the tiny .001 down if you ever switch to a richer alloy.
2. Temerature of the alloy has no effect on bullet diameter, because solidification temperature doesn't vary.  Mold temperature has an extremely small effect on diameter, with hotter mold casting slightly larger, but such a small amount that most can't measure it.
3.  Shooting a few jacketed will have no effect on bore condition, while shooting lead with LBT lube.  LBT lube residue will prevent jacket fouling from sticking for at least 20 shots in handguns.  One customer told me quite a few years ago that he shot a couple LBT lubed lead between every 20 or so jacketed for the express purpose of preventing jacket fouling!
4.  Sizer diameter will be determined by your guns internal measurements.  Select a size that lets your loaded ammo just chamber easily.
5.  You never have to clean the bore because there will me no fouling build up of any kind.  Keep in mind that when I made that statement I said once you get a load working without leading.  You can get leading if you run extreme pressure and velocities, especially in rifles.  It is hard to get handguns running that fast with safe pressures.  The bore never needs any protective oil for storage, because a film of lube remains in the bore.  I have several guns which haven't been fired for I believe 10 years, with perfectly clean bores.  There only protection, the film of LBT lube left from shooting.  If during load development you get leading, just back the charge down till it quits leading, and your bullets will wipe the lead out.  If you lead the bore by shooting rapid fire until the bore gets extremely hot, wait till it cools, and if the load is one that doesn't lead at normal bore temps, the leading will shoot out in a few shots.  Very few shots if the bullets are gas checked.
6.  Many of my customers run two and more molds at once, especially if bullet weight is 300 grains or more.  With lighter bullets, it may be difficult to cast fast enough to keep two molds hot.  LBT molds are larger than most molds, the primary reason being to provide maximum heat dissapation surface, but also to maintain optimum precison.  Yet the massive blocks are not heavy, being made of aluminum.  Hard aircraft grade, which give a long service life, not soft like Lee molds.
7,  For 30-30 I recommend a 160 gr LFN if you want to keep recoil down a bit, and a 170 gr LCFN if you want max power and retained energy at longer ranges.  Very few 30-30 lever guns will chamber a 170 gr LFN with the gas check contained inside the case neck.  A 150 gr gives up some accuracy and considerable power, especially at longer ranges.  Better to use a 160 gr loaded a little slower than choose the 150 gr to keep recoil down.
8.  I put crimp grooves in all revolver bullets, but only put them in rifle bullets on the M bullet for 45-70's.  Normally 30-30's will not give problems with uncrimped ammo.  To be sure bullets don't get driven into the case while slamming down through the magazine of lever guns, I find a powder which can be used with compressed loads.  In 30-30 there are quite a few suitable powders.  The other option is to crimp with a Lee factory crimp die, which is what I recommend for all rifle loads where crimps are desired.  The reason I don't cut crimps in rifle bullets is because throat erosion is fairly rapid, which changes optimum seat depth.  The Factory Crimp dies solves this problem.  (The throat erosion is caused by hot powder gas, not bullet wear, and is about the same with either lead or jacketed when running at high rifle pressures.)
9. No.  The punchs are made to fit each individual bullet, especially with different calibers, or with nose form changes.
10. Only problem is how difficult you made it!  Using push through slugs on a cleaning rod as they are designed to be, lets them align perfectly and keeps them straight.  Driving them through backwards could allow them to lean pretty bad while starting them.  If they have a good imprint of the bore they will work fine though.
  Your appoligy for all the question is not needed.  I like thinkers, and am one, which is why Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) exists!  Our names means carefully thought out, technical and scientific answers to all problems!  You'll get performance at break neck speed compared to what the oldtimers had to go through before LBT was born!
Veral Smith

Offline Wiking

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 06:45:04 AM »
Thank you very much for all your thorough answers.

In that case I'll go with the 160gr LFN, don't want to risk not being able to chamber with the 170grs.

I made sure the slugs went straight in, so they should be fine. I'll mail them and the order list to you ASAP.

Just one more thing. I don't quite get your answer to my 4. question. Lets say you measure the throats slugs to be .3575 and the bore .357 (I ran then through my calipers and that was what I got, although I don't think I did it the correct way) then what? Should I just run them through a .358 sizer to lube and install gas checks or find a .3575 sizer die?

Offline Veral

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2009, 05:58:33 PM »
  You won't be finding a .3575 sizer, except for a star sizer.  Furthermore, it is very common for sizers to not be properly sized.  I once had a 430 and a 431 die which both sized exactly the same size.  So, you see my answer was somewhat loaded, when I said find a sizer that just lets your ammo chamber easily.

  To be a bit more definative.  You are talking two calibers and crossing my recommendations. The 160 gr vs 170 gr recommendations applies only to the 30-30, and diameter for that will best be .310 or .311.

  I don't recommend the LFN for 38 caliber it there is any chance you'll want to kill something with it.  Get the FN for that, in whatever weight you prefer.  The 180 gr is a sledgehammer for magnums, while a 160 gr is best for 38 and does very well in magnums also, should you want to use the same bullet in both cartridges.  I suggest you get this is 358 diameter, then size as required to suit your gun.
Veral Smith

Offline Wiking

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 05:02:33 AM »
Hunting with handguns in Denmark is illegal, so I probably won't be doing that.
I've just read through a lot of old threads on bullet designs, and still don't know exactly what the best thing for my needs would be. Maybe it's just easier to say what I want from my Freedom Arms Model 83 .357. I'd like as long a COL as possible with as long a nose as possible so I can load it to its max potential. From your comments in other threads I conclude that a FN or a WLN would suit me better. Which do you think?

I also read that when using H110 you suggest slightly compressed loads. If the cartridge is set up for max performance like stated above does that mean that accuracy will suffer if I load it down and the powder is no longer compressed? I know it's not the best explanation, but hope you get what I mean....

Thanks again.

Offline Veral

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »
  Your request is just exactly the best approach anyone can take when dealing with me, because I work on a personal basis.  In 30 years of mold making I haven't had a complaint yet from customers who simply told me what they wanted and let me make it for them.

  The FN is the best 38 caliber bullet you can put into your gun.  Since you want max potential power, the longest nose that will fit your gun is dictated.  As for always using it at full power, to maintain accuracy.  Now, it will probably shoot most accurately as slightly under full steam and lower, because the bullet has less beating to stand up to.  Light charges of faster powders will be far the lowest cost and most pleasant loads to shoot when power isn't needed.

  It just so happens that when a bullet is set up for max power potential it is also set up for optimum accuracy at all speeds, as long as velocity is high enough to stabilize the bullet of interest.  A 180 gr weight would probably make you happiest, and will stabilize at speeds down to at least 800 fps.  A 200 gr might require 900 to 1000 fps for good stability.

  I didn't read back through this whole, quite long correspondence, but believe this should answer your concerns.  If you or anyone has more questions on any of the above and want to order a mold, fire them at me personally at    LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net   
Veral Smith

Offline Wiking

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 04:07:11 AM »
Thank you very much.

The slugs and order form is in the mail.

For the 30 cal I ordered .311, I assume the slugs will tell you if .310 is better.

I look forward to receiving the moulds  :P

Offline Veral

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2009, 08:49:20 PM »
  You are on track.  When I get the slugs in my hand, I cut the mold as if it were for my own gun, regardless of what the customer asks for.  If what I KNOW will work varies widely from what is requested I always contact the customer to be sure he'll be happy with my opinion.  I'll make sure you are!
Veral Smith

Offline Wiking

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 04:08:59 AM »
I know you will  :)

Do you think I need a Lee taper crimp die for the .357? I ask now because if I do I'll have a little more time finding one before I recieve the molds. Here we're slowly starting to feel the shortage on reloading components... everything is on back order.

Offline Veral

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 08:47:00 PM »
  All of the handgun cartridges only require the normal crimp, same as for revolvers.

  For the other levergun cartridges the crimp I recommend is not a lee taper crimp but the Lee Factory crimp.  I only recommend this crimp for bottle neck or tapered rifle cartridges.  It will ruin straightwall revovler cartridges if the bullets are at all oversize. 
Veral Smith

Offline mousegun

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Re: A few questions and doubts on mold order?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2009, 06:28:56 AM »
Gentlemen, this is a really kewl thread. Thank you both.

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