The Bush doctrine is working..

[ironglow]

 Like him or not, the Bush doctrine is working fine..
  Just pull up a map of the middle east and recall that I said on here years ago, that if a democratically elected government were placed in the middle of all these tyrannical states it stood a good chance of spreading (the Bush doctrine).
  Now we have a fairly elected govt in Iraq and Afghanistan, with Iatollah/terrorist run Iran in a pincers between the two..and ready to fall.
  If "O" is smart and means the best for America rather than Islam, now is the time to act and help the Iranian people get their democracy by any peaceful means.
  Now is the time when he can prove his loyalty to America.

  Why do I keep thinking he doesn't care as much for America as he does for Islam ?

[dukkillr]

Seems like a stretch to me.  I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I hope you turn out to be right... But the govt. in Afghanistan is ineffective outside Kabul and is propped up by US money and guns.  The govt. in Iraq is similarly held up by the US.

[teddy12b]

I'm no expert on their politics over there, but I strongly question what will be left standing when the US leaves both of those countries.  In either case, things will change both good and bad from the US perspective and likely more bad than good.  It does seem pretty obvious that there is a scam in Iran with the last election and hopefully those people will settle their dispute.

[Graybeard]

Why do I keep thinking he doesn't care as much for America as he does for Islam?

Wal now that might be cuz he IS A MUSLIM but is NOT an American. He was NOT born on US soil, he was NOT born an American and he has NOT made any effort since birth to become one.

[dw06]

Why do I keep thinking he doesn't care as much for America as he does for Islam?

Wal now that might be cuz he IS A MUSLIM but is NOT an American. He was NOT born on US soil, he was NOT born an American and he has NOT made any effort since birth to become one.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Oldshooter]

Why do I keep thinking he doesn't care as much for America as he does for Islam ?

It may be due to the fact that he denigrates America every chance he gets and kisses the "hands" of every Muslim he sees. Not to mention the fact that he is "buds" with Farrakhan and the like!

I agree with dukkillr, I'm afraid that Afghanistan and Iraq will revert back as soon as We are outa there. The people have to have a desire to be free to sustain Democracy, Those folk only have a desire to be ruled. Iran will be soon be back to where the Iatolla's want it to be, even if there are a lot less Iranians.

[ironglow]

Dukiller & 0ldshooter have a point. We cannot hope to have a free democracy as we know it, in Iraq & Afghanistan..we can hope that they will be beter than Saddam.
    Of course, in another year or two WE may not have a free democracy as we have all known it in the past.
   

[teamnelson]

Yes, the doctrine is working to accomplish its goal, which is not that there would be democratic governments in the middle east. "The responsibility of the United States is to protect itself and its friends by promoting democracy where the terrorists are located so as to undermine the basis for terrorist activities." The goal is to undermine the basis for terrorist activities.

Iraq is going to fall to a civil war within moments of our withdrawal - spent enough time there, talked to enough local leadership, and they know it too. Our policy is to seek out, close with and pay off the enemy, by contract or humanitarian aid. Do you have any idea what the policy of hiring local contractors has done politically and economically? Or the millions in COMREL we spent? We bought converts. Afghanistan has the same potential, different players and it will look a little different but same result. Neither country can now, nor will be able to in the future, sustain support to terrorist activities at the levels prior to the Bush doctrine. People in both countries want democratic capitalism now, and they will hash it out violently just as we did ... with help from outside countries I'm sure ... just as we did.

Not only that, but the growing influence of democratic ideals in the region has successfully penetrated the minds of the young people in Iran, as we see on TV right now, Also destablizing/undermining Iran's ability to participate in terror as they have to focus inward. Think of the young Iranian guy who was killed in a cross fire - 19 years old on his way home from acting school. Not on his way home from  terrorist indoctrination ... acting school. Search some of the Iranian Youth blogs ... drinking, sex, drugs, rock-n-roll. We've promoted good ol' Americanism big time over there, which undermines the basis of terrorism.

No one said it would be clean, elegant or pretty.

[ironglow]

 Teamnelson; 
 The problem with many discussions on these forums is that few military have had contact or training in "counter-insurgency warfare", say nothing about those who never were military.
  It is hard for some to grasp that often the greatest gains are done without guns and high explosives..

[powderman]

Why do I keep thinking he doesn't care as much for America as he does for Islam?

Wal now that might be cuz he IS A MUSLIM but is NOT an American. He was NOT born on US soil, he was NOT born an American and he has NOT made any effort since birth to become one.

HEH. Ya beat me to it. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

 Saying that Israel is a rogue nation among it's Muslim neighbors ..Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Palestinian occupied territory, Iran, Egypt & Saudi Arabia ..sure is a "quaint expression" !
   Rather like watching several coyotes trying to tear wounded deer to shreds..and then calling the deer..a rogue animal.
     I believe Israel as in the case of the wounded deer, would be pleased and a very good neighbor if the real coyotes would just leave them alone.

[teamnelson]

"financing Taliban" is old news unless you mean since 2000, and directly. We've been indirectly financing them through contracts as it turns out the guy we put in charge of hiring has ties to the enemy. But direct funding? Do tell.

[teamnelson]

I'm a  little confused by your conclusion - we're buying drugs and gems that are financing the Taliban, unbeknownst to the buyers, and that's a CIA plot? I'm still looking for intentionality.

So maybe we should make it illegal for people to buy heroin so they won't fund the Taliban ... oh wait, it is. We could put a ban on the importation of precious stones into the US I suppose; that'd make my collection of Somali Amber really valuable.

[ms]

Tm7 they can't take the truth.

[teamnelson]

Poppy growing in Afghanistan was protected by NATO/UN under the auspices of protecting subsistence farming in a destabilized economy, some of which contributes to legal medicine production. When US Forces returned to the region, negotiations began to change that policy after the transfer of power, specifically to undermine the financial basis of terrorist activities. However the current regime in DC has not picked up the cause as it would be contrary to its commitment to EU/UN integration.

Taliban presence in Pakistan goes back aways. I can't speak to Israeli attempts to destabilize a Muslim nuclear power with the capacity and will to destroy it, but Israel is an independent operator capable of doing their own work. So Zainuddin accuses a comrade of being a US-Israeli agent, and is killed the next day. Believe it or not, the one does not necessarily corroborate the other. And Meshud killing Zainuddin still does not make the accusation true.

You've accused me of being a political officer; would your untimely death make that true? No.

[ironglow]

  As far as who is the traitor...as I have long said, the real traitors in this country are the idiots who buy and use heroin and it's derivatives.
  That garbage has been outlawed here and is not sold on the open market..so the smugglers, sellers, buyers and users are the treacherous culprits; same as with the whole illicit drug trade , from pot to meth and everything in between.
  The buyer/user does it willingly, nobody twists their arm..
 So some lawbreakers in Switzerland and Israel are buying gems from unsavory sources ! That doesn't in any way indicate any kind of complicity with the respective governments. To conclude such an idea is totally ludicrous.
  The fact that there is a lucrative market for something such as drugs or gems and some unscruplous people flourish in such activities, is as old as recorded history, and certainly doesn't automatically indict the respective government..  

[ironglow]

  I wasn't aware of MJ being anything beyond his Jehovah's Witness years..and although I disagree with the JWs on many things, they certainly do not promote molesting children. I did hear that he was asking a rabbi for advice, but that rabbi said he was wasting his time, so he gave up on MJ.
  Apparently he didn't listen to the rabbi any better than he did to his JW leader.... perhaps he tried Islam..haven't heard; not likely he would change for them either.