Author Topic: Fighting to keep my caps on!  (Read 2417 times)

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Offline ZVP

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Fighting to keep my caps on!
« on: April 28, 2009, 07:31:41 PM »
 OK I'm new to this and am experiencing two problems.
 #1) I tried CCI, Winchester and Remington caps so far and have yet to find "the trick" to keeping all 5 or 6 caps to stay put on the nipples. I tried pinching them a little and tried folding a tight spot on the edge with a fingernail but neither seems to hold consistantlly.
 I bought 3 different Cappers but they also seem to place the caps too loose on the nipples.
 What is the "trick"???
 #2) On both my '51 Navys (.36 and .44), nearly every cylinder-full, I get at least one spent cap fragment fall into the Hammer Recess either preventing the Hammer to hit or hitting the next cylinder's cap too weak to fire. Do you have to elevate the muzzle between shots to kick out the spent cap fragments?
 This is a real problem because at least one Range Officer at our club is "Death" on enforcing the "Point it downrange" rule of our Club... He really gives me a hard time even though I have explained why I do this.
 Please, any hints or suggestions here will help!
 One more thing.
 I still can't find consistant loading data for Pyrodex "P" Powder.
 Most info says to load equal per VOLUME with Black powder however, my Dixie Catalog has a load chart showing a 15% reduced load volume for Pyrodex "P".
 Hogedons  site says equal volume per volume with B/P and I have been using that benchmark with my 15 and 22 gr. 1851 loads(Brass/Steel frames) and the 25gr. Steel frame '58 Remington .44. Sure would like to know for SURE tho!
 Cap and ball Pistol shooting sure is fun and relaxing, I love it!
 Thanks all,
 ZVP

Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 12:43:05 AM »
Hello ZVP; welcome on board.  :)
To begin with the best Caps for your (PIETTA) Navy.36 and .44 is the Remington #10.  It has a longer Cup that snugs onto the wider portion of the tapered cone of the nipples.   With the #11's, some people pinch or squish the caps a little to make them stay on.

Next; to throw off the spent caps; the ideal way is to flick the revolver up after each shot.   You may remember seeing the old black and white westerns on TV, how they always do that.   However; just as you said, Range Officers shun that kind of method, so an alternative is to flick the revolver over to the right, keeping it pointed down range as you go thru the routine of cocking for the next shot.   Even the tight fitting Reminton #10's will split and hang up from time to time.   That's just part of Black Powder Shooting.

And finally;  the Pyrodex Powder is a little hotter stuff than the real GOEX (Holy Black) Black Powder, so it's advisable to cut it back by 10% at least.   Brass frames will wear out over time if using heavy 30gr. loads......    22gr. of real black gives better consistancy if you're concerned about accuracy, but 25gr. is fun to shoot if you don't mind wasting poweder.

Your Remington's wll probably fair better using the #11 Caps if my thinking is correct, as the nipple size is larger.   Yep; C&B is loads of fun alright.  Happy Shootin'.
4B
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 04:32:43 AM »
The cap issue is really a nipple issue. The Italian nipples are not held to any consistent standard, some take #10 caps, some take #11 and some don't really seem to fit anything. The solution is to replace them with Ampco nipples which are sized to fit #11 caps perfectly. The Ampco nipples also have a much smaller flash hole. That means less back pressure on the caps to blow them off the nipple so you have fewer tie ups from cap fragments.
 It is important that the caps fit the nipples and stay in place. An open nipple on a loaded chamber can become a path for chainfire and you really don't want that. I use CCI #11 caps on Ampco nipples in all of my four revolvers and really can't remember the last time I experienced a tie up from cap fragments.
 Incidentally, my best accuracy has been with Pyrodex powder, RS grade. I use Goex black in everything but the revolvers which just seem to prefer Pyrodex. I tried 777 just once and found it very inconsistent and inaccurate in my 1851 which is a tack driver with Pyrodex RS.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 06:56:21 AM »
Quote
The cap issue is really a nipple issue.


True to an extent; the Pietta installs one size 6mm x .75 nipple on their Navy 36's , Army 44's and Remington New Model.  UBERTI; on the other hand installs the 5.5mm x .9 nipple on all three models.  But they're both plenty adequate to do the job.

Quote
Ampco nipples which are sized to fit #11 caps perfectly
 Again coyotejoe and many other black powder men choose this nipple to be an outstanding after market part for their Cap&Ball Revolvers.
  Although I've never used them, I suspect the caps will still fragment after firing.    What do you say coyotejoe?

Tripple 7 (777) is a very hot BP substitute and needs the charge to be reduced 10% of that equivalent to BP.    But; even at that, in revolvers it tends to be inconsistant as coyotejoe says.
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Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 11:55:53 AM »
Most of my revolvers have the nipples they came with.
I use either No. 10 or 11, depending on which fits snuggest on the nipple. Then I pinch each cap into an elliptical shape before placing on the nipple.
To ensure the cap is fully seated on the nipple, I sometimes use a short length of 1/4" dowel to gently push the cap onto the nipple. The operative word being gently.
Obviously, don't have your fingers or hand in front of the cylinder when you do this, and keep the pistol pointed downrange.
One of my revolvers has the Treso nipples and they are very fine. However, I'm waiting for when the current nipples wear beyond use, then I'll replace them with Treso. Currently, I have no problems with the original nipples as long as I use the right caps and pinch them into an elliptical shape, so I'm not in a rush to replace them.

Pyrodex P is designed to be used volume-for-volume with FFFG black powder. That is, unless they have recently changed it. I've used Pyrodex P off and on since 1979. From the beginning, it was intended to replace FFFG in revolvers and pistols, volume-for-volume. It is also used in small-caliber rifles, such as the .32-caliber squirrel rifles.

However, Hodgdon 777 is NOT designed to be used volume-for-volume. It should be reduced by 15 percent before use. When 777 was new, I got hold of one of the first cans, though it was difficult to find. I foolishly did not pay attention to the label and used it volume-for-volume in my Uberti-made copy of the 1858 Remington in .44 caliber.
Good thing I selected that stout revolver! From the first shot, it was evident this was a powerful load. I fired all six loads, without damaging the gun, but now admit I should have stopped firing and reconsidered.
Imagine my shock when, right there on the label, it said it was not to be used volume-for-volume!
You're never too old, or have so much experience, that you can't be a dumbkopf once in a while.
I took it as a life-lesson.
I used the 40gr. measure that day but now, when I shoot the Remington with Hodgdon 777, I use the 24 or 30 grain measure.
I don't use 777 much, though. It's not nearly as accurate as Goex FFFG black powder.
Nor have I found Pyrodex P to be as accurate as Goex FFFG black powder. In truth, I haven't found anything as accurate as FFFG black powder.

Through the years I've also found that ball size should be slightly larger than commonly suggested, in cap and ball revolvers. For the .36 caliber this means .380 inch instead of .375. For most .44s, this means .454 or .457 instead of the .451 usually suggested.
The Ruger Old Army is an exception. Ruger suggests .457 inch balls. I don't own one, but if I did I'd probably try it with .460 balls and see if there is an accuracy improvement.
The larger ball, upon ramming, creates a wider bearing band for the rifling to grip. I have long believed that this improves accuracy and my experience with .451, 454, 457, .375. 378 and .380 balls seems to prove this out.
I also strongly believe in a greased felt wad between ball and powder. The best lubricant I've found is what I posted years ago others have since dubbed Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant, to recognize my contribution.
For more information, read my Sticky above entitled, "Proper Use of the Cap and Ball Revolver."
You'll find a wealth of information in it.
Others may disagree with minor points in it, but on the whole it will help a beginner on the right track. I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers since 1970 and I'm still learning. They are not as cut-and-dried as people think!
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline ZVP

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 07:23:55 PM »
 Thanks to all for the help!

 I took the '51 London Navy to the Club today and pinched oval, pressed-on, Caps were tried and I still had problems!
 10's were too tight, 11's only fit the Remington right.
 The Colt Clone had trouble with about 60 of it's shots! Remington Caps split jammed between the Hammer and Framepreventing a full fall of the Hammer.
 It's gotta be the Nipples.
 I suppose I'll order those "good" ones, Dixie advertises em.
 Cap and Ball shooting is way too much fun to have  the Factory "junk" nipples mess it up for me.
 ZVP

Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 10:14:04 AM »
Quote
ZVP ~  I suppose I'll order those "good" ones, Dixie advertises em

Don't forget to give us an unbiased opinion of how those new nipples work out for ya..

4B
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Offline Elijah Gunn

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 05:05:24 PM »
The problem I have with caps is when they stick to the nipple after they have been fired. I have to pick them off with a small screwdriver. Any way to get them to fall away consistently?
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Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 05:40:12 PM »
The problem I have with caps is when they stick to the nipple after they have been fired. I have to pick them off with a small screwdriver. Any way to get them to fall away consistently?

Elijah Gunn; I've never had that situation come up before.   What type of gun and Cap size are you using?   ???
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Offline blhof

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2009, 09:49:10 AM »
I have that problem with a North American Arms 22 C&B revolver/derringer. I've tried 10's and 11's with the same problem.  I believe it has something to do with the small confined space around the nipples.

Offline Elijah Gunn

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2009, 02:14:34 AM »
I use CCI, no. 10s on my Colt 1851 Navy. I can expect pieces of cap to stay stuck to a nipple at least 2 out of 12 shots. The stuck on piece(s) may ,or may not keep the cylinder from turning. It makes reloading more time consuming to have to pick off bits of caps stuck to the nipple. I've had the same thing happen with Rem. no. 11s as well. I also use 3f Goex black powder. If I had the money I'd love to try the nipples made by Uncle Mikes.
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Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2009, 08:11:22 AM »
Quote
Posted by: FourBee ~ What type of gun and Cap size are you using?

Quote
Posted by: Elijah Gunn ~  I use CCI, no. 10s on my Colt 1851 Navy. Rem. no. 11s as well

I'd say the CCI #10 are too tight, and the #11's for sure will fragment and lodge in the most unlikely places.  Remington #10's have a deeper cup, (must insure they are fully seated) and tend to stay on the nipple after firing, but fall off easily after discharge.  However; they will still frament like the #11's.

As for the aftermarket nipples, someone who uses them would know if they actually prevent stuck and fragmented caps.

4B

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Offline Elijah Gunn

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 01:42:08 AM »
Maybe I'll try polishing the nipples so that the fired caps come off easier.
What will you say on Judgement Day?

The BANKERS win every war.

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Offline NickSS

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 10:53:08 PM »
I mostly use CCI and RWS caps as these are what is generally available where I live.  I have not seen a remington cap in years.  I mostly shoot number 11 caps but have to pinch them to stay on the nipples.  I have used No. 10 CCIs but they are a bit tight.  The best fitting caps were Italian ones I got from Navy Arms years ago.  Its too bad I shot them all away.  They fit all my piatta guns perfectly and did not fragment at all.  The only problem I had was getting them off.  I carried a letherman tool to use the pliers to pluck the caps off.  I wish I could get these again as they worked extremely well.

Offline ZVP

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2009, 06:10:48 PM »
 Been a while since I posted this topic and I have tried all the tricks everyone said to and looked up cures elsewhere on the net.
 I honestlly think it's a combination of carefully fitting your caps (quality #11's in my case) and either a quick flick to the right or up as you cock the piece.
 There are still a few hang-ups but "I" am getting better at running my guns! It atakes time to gain the feel for a well fitted cap?
 Yes being a newbe is hard when trying to learn "Old Arts" Thanks to all on this great Forum for your help!
 ZVP

 PS
 I just bought a 5 1/2" Remington .44! Abeltmate for my full size 8" 1858.
 Waiting for it is like waiting for CHRISTmas...

Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2009, 06:44:19 PM »
YEEee!  HhAAaa!
Now yer gettin into IT ZVP!
Here I am experimenting with APP substitute.  I like the smoke, but other than that, I like the real GOEX stuff..... ;D ;D
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Offline His lordship.

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2009, 08:33:01 AM »
I prefer the Remingtons as they are less rigid compared to the CCI and envelope the nipple better.  I used to use RWS exclusively back in the 1980s, but the recent batch I had were dissapointing for the stock nipples.  I also keep a needle nosed pliers to pull off stubborn nipples after shooting, I do get those from time to time. 

The size of the gun seems to influence things as well.  Most of the time I have to rock my Uberti 1851 colt upwards to cock the hammer allowing the spent cap to fall away, on my 1860 Army (Pietta) I rarely did that, but the hammer is bigger and allows more force to hit the next nipple even when a squished one is jambed down between the hammer and the frame.  I imagine the baby dragoon or 1849 pocket would be extra sensitive in this regard, but I have never fired one.   

Offline Flint

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2009, 04:34:13 PM »
There is good advice scattered through all those responses.  My experience is that Remington # 10 works best on Treso nipples.  CCI #10 will stick after firing and indeed, I have needed a knife or tool to remove a fired CCI cap.  Often, #11's are too large.

Factory Pietta nipples are a hair too small for Remington #10 caps, the older the Pietta (pre CNC) the more irregular they are in size and concentricity.    Contrary to polishing the nipples for better removal, I found that nipples, once fired get dirty enough to hang on to a Remington cap and they don't tend to fall off before firing as easily.

With a Treso or Ampco nipple, the cap usually does not get blown into the action, but is also easily removed, usually falling off upon rotation of the cylinder.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline FourBee

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Re: Fighting to keep my caps on!
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2009, 03:23:15 AM »
Quote
Factory Pietta nipples are a hair too small for Remington #10 caps

I have a couple of Pietta's;  A 1994 Brass 1860 .44cal Army Colt, and a 2007 Steel 1860 .44cal Army.  The Remington #10's are what I use.   They fit better than any caps I've found.  The long cup makes them fit good and snug because the nipples flare out towards the bottom.   I don't see any difference in nipples between the two guns, so........?????    As for the Rem #11's, the short cup can't reach the lower and wider portion of the nipple so they just kinda dangle on the nipples waiting to fall off if you hold your gun in the wrong position.

4B
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