Author Topic: Pre 98 Mauser in Sportsmans Guide (Read 3829 times)

Freezer · « **on:** April 24, 2009, 01:18:03 PM »

I got a copy of "The Sportsman Guide" today They have a "Pre 98 Mauser" for sale in 308 or 7x57. Are these 96 Mausers, Spanish Mausers? What's up with the 308 Chambering? Are these guns that were sent to Israel and rebarreled? They want $349, there's no way I'd buy one for that price.

GatCat · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:51:06 PM »

If it is a pre-'98 pattern, I don't think that they are Israeli; I'm pretty sure Isreal used WW2 '98 patterns for their conversion/use.
Probably, Spanish made. After all, Spain converted many of their small-ring pre-98's to .308, and apparently didn't have problems with them, although, like you, I would not care for one.
Mark

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** April 26, 2009, 01:32:02 AM »

More likely a 95 or 93 Mauser. I believe Israel used WWII 98s. I also believe the 95s in 7x57 were the ones most often converted to 308s.

If I can pick up a WWII 98 in 8mm for under $300, or a M48 or 48A in 8mm for around $200, I would not go for one priced at nearly $350. jmtcw.

Aardvark · « **Reply #3 on:** April 26, 2009, 02:10:39 AM »

Here is thier ad:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/pre-1898-mauser-rifles.aspx?a=532481

These are antique model 95's no FFL required and German made South American issue rifles.
Here is one on GB--notice NO BIDS at his asking price---
http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=127603540
And one on AA:
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9102910

mannyrock · « **Reply #4 on:** April 26, 2009, 06:35:29 AM »

PASS THEM BY!!! These are model 95s, originally designed and chamberred for the 7mm mauser, and then re-barreled by someone (who? when?) to 7.62 Nato. These are NOT Israeli convert rifles.

Think about this: You would be buying a rifle that is over 100 years old, that was designed for the low pressure 7mm mauser round (which has a psi in the mid 40,000 range?) , and shooting the high pressure 7.62 Nato round in it (which has a psi in the mid 50,000 range!)

Worse yet, if you fire a .308 Winchester round in it, you are shooting a round in the 65,000 psi range!!! (The .308 Winchester is a hunting round, that has thinner brass than the 7.62 Nato, which allows for more powder in the hunting shell and higher pressure and power. The 7.62 Nato brass is thicker, to permit it to be fired in machine guns without it getting torn up, and therefore has less powder capacity than the .308 Winchester.)

Note, that the barrels on these rifles you are looking at will be stamped "7.62 mm". They will not be stamped ".308 Winchester."

Recognize these for what they are: JUNK!

Why risk your eyesight, fingers, etc., or those of your children, for a toy??

You could get a nice safe 98 Mauser, in 8mm, instead.

There was a REASON that Paul Mauser invented the Model 98: The Model 95s were not good enough or strong enough! They only had two locking lugs, whereas for safety sake, the Model 98 has three.

Regards, Mannyrock

Old Fart · « **Reply #5 on:** April 26, 2009, 03:22:51 PM »

The other thing is they'll probably have a stiff shipping on it. You'll be getting close to $400 before you know it.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #6 on:** April 26, 2009, 03:49:20 PM »

they are 1916 Spanish Oviedo mausers. these were rechambered (rebarreled?) to 7.62 from 7mm mauser. they are small ring, low-pressure actions. they have very poor gas-venting abilities, as well as relatively soft receivers which can and will stretch and go BANG on you if you get a bad one or overload it (which doesn't take much) if you can buy one for $40 and hang it on the wall, good for you!

-Matt

mannyrock · « **Reply #7 on:** April 26, 2009, 05:30:42 PM »

Heck, instead of paying $400 for that piece of junk, you could buy a sporterized high serial numbered 1903 Springfield at any large gunshow for $300.00, and then buy a new drop-in replacement stock for it for $100, and then have a decent rifle in 30-06. If you want it to be in .308, you can just install a chamber insert, check headspace, and then fire away.

I don't believe that these junkers are the 1916 Spanish Oveidas, however, because these junkers were manufactured prior to 1898. They are probably old Spanish 1893s, or perhaps 1895s. Either way, junk!

I use to see the Spanish Oveidas sell for about $150, in either the original 7 mauser or the rebarrelled 7.62.

For half of the $400 price, you could get a .303 Enfield in really good shape!

This is not the first time that the Sportsman's Guide has sold these clunkers. I seem to recall that they did the exact same thing about 10 years agol. Price back then was around $175.

Regards, Mannyrock

Freezer · « **Reply #8 on:** April 27, 2009, 01:44:55 PM »

You guys are singing my song. I can't believe they are permited to sell such a rifle. Anybody who collects Mauser or military arms should have a Commision 88, 93 and 95 Mauser but not a small ring in 308 and certianly not for $350. Talk about deceptive advertising "Pre 98" DAAA. I've bought a few things from sportsmans guide in the past and I've never been impressed. It's been so long I kind of wounder why they still send me their catalog.
I did find this add interesting, dangerous and over priced but interesting.

SlimPigguns · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2009, 02:47:03 PM »

I read somewhere that Spain had their 7.62 Nato ammo loaded down. There was quite a few converted 95 Mauser carbines sold in Australia about 30 Years ago. I got one in excellent condition real cheap, but I never shot it , and sold it on. I have never heard of a problem, but as others have said would not care to use one. - Pete

mannyrock · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2009, 03:45:21 PM »

Spain did not have its 7.62 Nato ammo loaded down. Instead, Spain used the original 7.62 round, called the 7.62 CETME. This round was later "loaded up" to create the 7.62 Nato. (Same external shell dimensions I believe).

And yes, when Spain converted their Mausers to 7.62, it was to fire the weaker 7.62 CETME, not the 7.62 Nato.

The 7.62 Nato was later altered by Winchester, by using a thinner case, to provide for even more powder and power, to create the commercial .308 Winchester.

Regards,

Mannyrock.

Swampman · « **Reply #11 on:** May 04, 2009, 03:59:25 PM »

I'd like to have a 7X57 Chilean carbine. I wouldn't want a small ring .308.

bckskin2 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:37:59 AM »

For that price you can get a brand new Stevens at Dunham's! some times get enugh change for a 'scope.
I have a Turk & a #3MK4 Enfield. I reload both on the light side. If you are getting a Relic to shoot Dunham's had some US made Enfield that have better sight that the Spanish Mauser. & it holds 10 rounds.
Jerry

S.S. · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2009, 04:40:57 PM »

I have never had any problems at all with Spanish Mausers?
I have a 93 and 95 in 7mm Mau and a 1916 in 7.62x51.
I have to seat the bullets out on the 1916 to get it to feed properly
due to the shorter case than the gun was built for though.
I also have a Civil Guard K98 in 8mm Mau. No major problems at all.
I would put the 93 up against any and all modern civilian production
rifles as far as accuracy goes. Not junk at all. as for the rifles at
sportsmans guide, As far as I know, these can be shipped direct by UPS
with no FFL or C&R. That is where they see to tack on the added
"value".. As much as i seem to be "crowing" here ,
I wouldn't pay half that price for one..
Just a side note, some of the military loadings in the 1890's of the 7mm Mau.
were actually about as powerful as a modern 308. the uruguay load with
a 143-145 grain fmj was moving at about 2750 fps A modern 7.62x51
M80 ball loading is a 147-150 grain moving at about 2750 fps! too close to call there
Some of the loadings for even the 1891 mauser in 7.65x53 were right up there too..
Most of my load data only shows the 7.62x51 only reaching into the low
40,000 CUP and the 7mm Mau in the mid to high 30,000.
Not too drastic of a difference. Of course I have never converted this to PSI
so the 7.62x51 may be in the 50,000 PSI range.
These old guns are not junk, just way over priced...

Freezer · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:33:48 PM »

SS, I was at a well respected gun shop the other day and the owner expresed your same views much to my surpise. He didn't have a problem with a 93 or 95 in 308 "but why" was his coment. They are over priced! The action is strong enough but unles it's a collector why bother.

goodconcretecolor · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2009, 03:06:51 PM »

There is an inaccurate mixing of pressure systems here. 7x57 mm goes 45kcup and 48kpsi, 308 goes 55kcup and 65kpsi. There is no direct correlation between cup(copper crusher) and psi(piezo-electric) without using integral calculus on the entire piezo-electric time-pressure curve. The pressures cited for 7.62 NATO is yet a third (military)system.. I shot, reloaded for and hunted with a model 1916 Spanish Mauser for seven years. Loved it. The low pressure 7.62 refered to here was for the CETME automatic rifle, the predecessor of the HK G3. The early prototypes could not handle the full pressure of the NATO round.
If you use loads that give 150-200 fps second less than peak 308 loads, you will be in the pressure range of the 7mm(about the same as the 300 Savage).
I have to agree that price is way high for those guns. And if they are pre'98 in their dat of mfg, probably should not be fired.

bckskin2 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2009, 02:49:22 AM »

I think it still boils down to you can get more rifle for your money. I would love to have a good 7 MM just as a collector if I can find a good price. I kee my eyes open for Bubbaed pre '98 that can be restored. For a I would still pick my Enfield for serious shooting.
Jerry

robert4570 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2009, 05:47:41 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on May 04, 2009, 03:59:25 PM

I'd like to have a 7X57 Chilean carbine. I wouldn't want a small ring .308.

Through mail order, I bought a 7X57 Chilean Mauser from Sportsmans Guide some 10-12years ago and must say much to my surprise it is a tack driver. I wanted to replace the tacky sporter stock it has and decided not to mess with it due its performance. I can live with an ugly rifle the shoots great.

1911crazy · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2009, 04:20:21 PM »

If you blow up the sportsmans guide pic its a small ring mauser. It has to be for sure a 93 or 95 to be sold with no FFL.

Sarco has the 98 brazilian 1908 7mm mausers listed.

Samco still has the 7mm mausers converted to 308 listed too.

If i didn't have any 7mm mausers i'd be lookin for sure.

mrbigtexan · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2009, 05:43:23 PM »

does anyone think that a swedish '96 mauser is to weak for 308 chambering? it to is a small ring.

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** May 29, 2009, 01:12:30 AM »

mrbigtexan: I do not believe the 96 Mauser, the 6.5 Swede, is too weak for the 7.62x51mm NATO round but I sure do not see any benefit or enhancement to the 96 in 7.62x51/308. The 308 is a ok round, but it sure isn't a 6.5 Swede or even a 260 for that matter, but this is jmtcw.

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** May 29, 2009, 01:15:01 AM »

Quote from: mrbigtexan on May 28, 2009, 05:43:23 PM

does anyone think that a swedish '96 mauser is to weak for 308 chambering? it to is a small ring.

I do

mannyrock · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2009, 08:36:54 AM »

I too believe that the 96 Swede is too weak, in the long run, for handling the .308 Winchester. And, if you convert it to cock-on-open, this will make it even weaker.

And, indeed, why bother? The 96 Swede in 6.5 Swede is a wonderful rifle in a wonderful caliber, and if you really need a .308 Mauser, then their are tens of thousands of good military 98s you could convert, and thousands of used .308 commercial Mausers you could buy. Don't re-invent the wheel. It never pays off. :-)

Regards,

Mannyrock

Bigdog57 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 31, 2009, 12:30:55 PM »

I wouldn't mind having the 7mm SG Mauser, but the price is just too high at the moment. I do have the Spanish M1916, chambered in 7.62X51 - I reload specifically for it (keeping it's ammo separate and clearly marked), to approximately .30-40 Krag level. Nice comfortable shooter, decent accuracy and doesn't beat me up. No pressure worries either. My FR8 shoots fine with surplus 7.62 and commercial .308Win. It is built on the M43 large-ring action.

A couple years back, the big arguments were going on at various gun forums regarding the strength of the M1916 small ring Mausers. NEVER could anyone find one case of such a rifle grenading or having a serious failure with commercial .308Win ammo. With hot reloads, YES. I do believe the hoopla over Spanish (and other small ring Mauser) action strength is blown out of proportion.

BUT.... I still load her LIGHT - just in case.

bckskin2 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:09:57 AM »

I remember when it was the hot topic & couldn't find any one who had actually blown one up, but one man had seen a failure due to a blown case that vented gas down into the magizine an burned the shooter hand. PO Ackley blew up some military rilfles on purpose a long time ago & I remember he was suprised at how hard it was to blow them up. I load both my '98 Mauser & Enfiled on the light side not that I worry about htem blowing up they are just more fun to shoot with light loads. Especially the Enfield. If I am not careful with full power loads I get my trigger finger dinged! The old long barreled Turk handles ever thing well.
Jerry

mtbugle · « **Reply #25 on:** July 02, 2009, 02:42:01 PM »

I have a FR-8 and would like to know if it is ok to shoot commercial 308 in. I thought a couple years ago it was only recommened to 7.65 nato. What is the current thought on the FR-8's?
thanks Don.