17 Fireball Dies

[Davemuzz]

I just put in a order for a Shilen barrel to re-barrel my Stevens from a .308 to the 17 fireball. I have another rifle in .308 however, since I bolted a Shilen 6.5x55 to a Savage action last year, I've decided to retire my .308 hunting cartridge.

Now, I understand that this little bullet is quite small to reload. And, since I shoot only reloads....I was looking at the http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=979403 RCBS Gold Metal Match Seating Die. Now, I know I can buy it for less at another sponsors web site, but the RCBS die has a small window in it where you just push the bullet into it and then you can seat the bullet from there. It saves you from trying to seat the tiny bullet on the brass.....and then attempting to seat the bullet.

I was just wondering if anyone has used this type of seating die? I mean.....for $90 it may very well be worth my sanity.

Dave

[Graybeard]

I use and recommend the Hornady dies. They have a sliding sleeve that keeps the bullet aligned as it is being seated. Most of the bullets I use are boat tail anyway in this round and in my .22s as well so they sit nicely on the case.

What I do is put 50 cases in a wood loading block and drop the powder, double check it under a strong light to be sure all are at same level then set the block near my press. I sit 50 bullets on the cases then pick them up one at a time holding the neck and bullet with my thumb and first finger on left hand. I slid them into the shell holder and raise it up until the sliding sleeve is over the bullet then just seat them.

I've never yet had one get cross wise or offer any problem in seating like this.

[Davemuzz]

Thanks Bill.

Tell me, what grain weight bullet do you like (or does your rifle like) the best? 20, 25, or 30 grain?

Dave

[Graybeard]

So far the only thing I've shot is 20 grain. I do have some 25s to try but haven't yet.

[Davemuzz]

One more question Bill.....I've been searching for a brass trim tool. Usually I use the Lee case length cutter on all my brass, but I can't seem to find it at any of the usual on-line shops. What are you using to trim the brass? And do you find that it needs trimmed as often as any other bottle neck brass? (ie: .223, .308, ect)

Thanks again.

Dave

[Graybeard]

I have two trimmers. One is my old Forster and the other the RCBS powered tool. I have both set up to trim these cases. Both companies offer the proper pilots for use with the .17s and .204 as well. When I have but a few and especially if it's something I'm not yet set up to do on the RCBS I'll use my old Forster but for the most part these days the RCBS gets the nod for all trimming duties. It is set up permanently on my bench like the Forster was before I got the RCBS.

[MZ5]

.....I've been searching for a brass trim tool. Usually I use the Lee case length cutter on all my brass, but I can't seem to find it at any of the usual on-line shops.

Lee doesn't make a cutter or length gauge for anything less than .22 cal.  My brother's been round and round with them, and they won't even let you pay them shop time to special-order one once they figure out you've given them the dimensions for a factory cartridge.

[Davemuzz]

Lee doesn't make a cutter or length gauge for anything less than .22 cal.  My brother's been round and round with them, and they won't even let you pay them shop time to special-order one once they figure out you've given them the dimensions for a factory cartridge.

I suppose they (Lee) know there business better than I do....but for some reason that seems about as smart as a bag of bricks. I dunno....maybe because the little 17 is so skinny they have tested it and found their materials break when they get hot (using a drill perhaps??).

Must be something 'cause you wouldn't think they would just throw money (aka Sales) away.

Dave

[MZ5]

Yeah, I didn't get it, either.  They did give a reason, but a subsequent product offering showed their stated reason to be... 'incorrect.'  My brother still can't get them to make a .204 length gauge for him.

[saltydog]

There are other dies that will work at far less price. While were are at it - I would recommend you take a hard look at the 204 Ruger. You have the velocity 4000 plus without all the fuss associated with a 17 caliber. The 17 HMR and Mach 2 are the only 17's I shoot now. The 22 Fireball is also an underated round in my estimation - good fps with small powder charges.

[Davemuzz]

SD,

I once owned a Smith revolver in 17hmr. I practically gave that gun away. I'll never own the 17 rimfire again in handgun or rifle.

My shootin buddy ask me if I was seeing a shrink when I told him I was doing this 17 centerfire project!! I just said faster is better.

I don't want the 204. I already have a .223 Rem.

The 17 centerfires are suppose to be very fur friendly on fox if loaded correctly. We shall see. Besides, I needed another project for the summer anyway.....and this one seemed to fit the bill. 

Dave

[Davemuzz]

One more 17 Fireball question for you experienced Fireball reloaders. I am reloading some now (yeah....'a-fore I get the gun together. I got the brass 'n bullets in a few days ago and it was raining.....so....) and I have the brass trimmed (I ended up with a new Forster trimmer....very nice product....probably should have bought one years ago) and I have 'em all primed.

For right now, I'm going to load up some 20 grain Berger hollow points. The OAL is 1.800 (From Berger). But....I have usually measured my chamber space and then seated my Bergers' about 20 thousands from the lands. However, since my rifle isn't "built" yet, I can't do this yet.

So, my question to you guys is..."Do you measure the chamber and then seat your OAL accordingly, or do you just use the 1.800 OAL for the Berger, or the 1.830 OAL for the Hornady's?

Again, thanks much.

Dave

[saltydog]

The 204 Ruger and 223 REM are not comparable - the 204 Ruger compares to the 22-250 REM. The 204 will shoot a 50% greater weight bullet faster than you can load a 17 Fireball to shoot a 20 grain bullet. Not too many 4000 plus 223's out there even with 35 grain bullets. The 17 will powder and copper foul a barrel much quicker than a 20 cal or 224 cal bullet. In terms of your COL - my data suggests starting at 1.80 with Berger HP's You really need an OAL guage and a bullet comparator such as products here - http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=485 - to be able to fine tune your COL in particular when using Bergers. Berger suggests - For years we have relayed that it is best to jam the VLD into the lands for best performance.  This works for many rifles however there are many rifles that do not shoot the VLD well when the bullet is jammed.  We have learned that the VLD can shoot best as much as .150 jump off the rifling.  VLD bullets can be sensitive to seating depth and it has been found that these bullets shoot best in a COAL “sweet spot”.  This sweet spot is a COAL range that is usually .030 to .040 wide. 
The quickest way to find this sweet spot is to load ammo at four different COAL.  Start with a COAL that allows the bullet to touch the rifling.  The next COAL needs to be .040 off the lands.  The third COAL needs to be .080 off the lands.  The last COAL needs to be .120 off the lands.  One of these COAL will outperform the other three by a considerable margin.  It has been reported that the VLD bullets don’t group as well at 100 yards but get better as the bullet “goes to sleep” at further ranges.  We have learned that by doing the four COAL test you will find a COAL where the VLD bullets will group well at 100 yards.  Once the COAL that shoots best is established you can tweak +/- .005 or .010 to increase precision or you can adjust powder charges and other load variables.  Frankly, those who do the four COAL test usually are happy with the results they get from this test alone.  

[Davemuzz]

saltydog,

Thanks...for the info.....but (and you didn't or wouldn't know this) but I already know this info about the Berger bullet. And I already have the Hornady bullet OAL Gauges that you linked. (And I use 'em for all my other calibers....on Bergers and other bullets).

I was specifically looking for anyone with experience with loading the 17 Fireball. I don't know if it makes a difference with this tiny little bullet. You know, if 5 thousands one way or the other from the lands makes a big difference. I can understand powder, but land-jump...I just don't know.

Dave

[mike4]

i just started loading 17 fireball to and i loaded them to max length in the hornady manuel also using 20 grain v max and imr 4198 and they shoot to the same spot as the factory loaded 20 gr but my gun has a short chamber also

[saltydog]

Glad you already had the info - I can tell you first hand 17 REM bullets want to be seated just a hair short of the lands. Same bullets - different cartridge - YMMV. The other area the 17 REM is sensative to is case neck brass flow and it requires case neck turning every 5 shots or so. The caliber diameter is so small it doens't take much to impede the performance.

[LaOtto222]

Your original question was has anyone had experience with the RCBS Gold Metal Match Seating Die. Well I have and do use one. I bought one in 222 flavor many years ago. It is an older design than you can not get today, but they work the same. It too has a sliding sleeve, as any precision seating die has. I have been able to load very straight bullets with it. I have a run out gage as well and use it. the real key to straight bullets are a  straight case neck. The real nice feature that it has is the window you have mentioned. All you have to do is get the case started into the sleeve until it starts to move up, you can see it through the window. Once this happens you just drop the bullet into the window and into the top of the sleeve. You then continue to raise the ram until you seat the bullet to a predetermined OAL. I have used The RCBS, Redding, Forester and Hornady seating dies, all with a sliding sleeve. The Hornady is by far the cheapest to buy and does a good job. The RCBS, Redding and Forester types have precision seating depth gauges, that will let you dial in the OAL as you switch from one bullet to the next. Of course if you do not worry about OAL length this is not a concern or do not switch bullets, it would not be a concern. You can buy a precision adjustment head for the Hornady (I think), but it add to the cost and you will be getting in to the Forester cost range. The easiest to use by far is the RCBS. I still seat 221 Fireball bullets with that old 222 die. I have seated 223 cases with it too, until I got my Forester seating die. Do as you please, but the RCBS is real easy to use. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[LaOtto222]

I know I am real late on this Dave. When I ordered my Last Shilen barrel, I sent 2 dummy cartridges along. They throated it custom for my loads. In other words, I set the bullets right where I wanted them (OAL) and they cut the throat to match exactly. Now I can easily set my bullets to touch the rifleing or pull them back in to where I want them. I have found it shoots great about .020" off the lands. Since you have already ordered your barrel, you will need to wait until it arrives, set your head space and then measure where yur bullets need to be to just kiss the lands. Kepp us posted on your progress and pictures are manditory. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[Davemuzz]

Here is my "update" on rebarreling my Stevens from it's former .308 to it's new life as a 17 Fireball. First, I will tell you that this gun is one heck of a shooter. I'm loading 25gr. Berger Match bullets over H-335 and it's tough to tell if you hit the 100 yard target with 5 shots. It looks like 3 or 4 hit it....you got to turn the target around and study it! A flyer is 1\16" away from "the group"!!!

Extraction of the short cartridge was "fixed" via filing off 20 thousands of the Savage ejection pin so it would "stick out" more and allow the cartridge to drag on the side of the action until it cleared. Also, using a larger ball bearing in the extractor helps to hold the case tighter during extraction.

The standard Savage staggered feed mag just will not work with the short Fireball cartridge. Believe me, I tried six ways from Sunday to make it work.

So, I finally came up with the idea of using a CZ mag (CZ makes a removable mag for the 221 Fireball. Same cartridge as the 17 Fireball, just a different size bullet) and "making" it work in the Stevens stock.

I ended up taking a piece of walnut over to my buddies wood shop, and measuring and with a drill press, band saw, table saw, and sanding disc, you can do a lot in very little time.

I had to Davcon on some extended feed lips so the 17 case would reach the chamber before it "left" the magazine or it would just pop out and go sideways. However, I now have a reliable Stevens 200 action, with an darn accurate Shilen barrel that will feed and extract reliably the 17 Fireball cartridge. And....I have a centerfeed removable magazine!! 

Here are some pics.











Yeah....I got to do some "pretty-in up". But I needed to make sure it worked well before I went to the "powder puff" phase.

Dave