Author Topic: Would a hunter buy uniformed reloading components? (Read 894 times)

briannmilewis · « **on:** July 09, 2009, 05:03:26 PM »

My question is: For hunting load development, would you as a hunter who reloads buy cases and bullets of the exact same weights if you had a choice? For example, instead of buying a box of 100 Vmax 50gr bullets that range in weights from say 50.0gr to 50.6gr, would you prefer to buy a box of 100 bullets that all weighed 50.0gr, or 50.1gr, or 50.2gr etc and why or why not? The same question applied to cases: Would you prefer to buy 100 Winchester (as a brand example only) cases that have been full-length resized, neck trimmed to minimum OAL, are all the same weight, have had the primer pocket and flash-hole uniformed, rather than buying an off-the-shelf bag of 100 new cartridges? If so why, if not why? Interested to see what folks think. Thanks.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2009, 05:29:56 PM »

For hunting uses at realistic ranges such things are just a waste of time.

jhalcott · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:07:43 PM »

Bill has such a way with words and they are true!! IF i am loading for hunting I don't run the powder to the max. If 3 of MY reloads stay in an inch at 100 yards, i'm set for deer to about 300. Beyond that range I stand a good chance of finding a gut pile where MY deer fell. AND I DO NOT HUNT ON PUBLIC LAND!!

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:39:33 PM »

Bill is correct. There really is not that much difference between all the fussing and just loading them up and shooting. We are talking 1/2" difference at most - 1/2" group verses a 1" group at most - more than likely; less. There are other things that make more of a difference in accuracy, such as how concentric are your bullets to the case. You can spend all kinds of time sorting bullets and prepping cases, but if the bullet has a bunch of run out, it will shoot worse than no sorting and case prep with a straight seated bullet. Be careful at the loading bench and with load development - you will find your reloads are plenty accurate with no case prep and bullet sorting. BTW for my varmint rigs, I do some case prep work, but have never sorted a bullet. Using Hornady V-Max bullets I can regularly shoot under 1/2" - no sorting. I am not loading for benchrest competition, just some unwanted critters. Good Luck and Good Shooting

Siskiyou · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:26:11 PM »

For years my only rifle was a Remington M760 in 270 Winchester. I shot digger squirrels, jackrabbits, coyotes, deer, and antelope with it. For about ten years the Remington Bronze Point was my go to bullet; pushed by H4831 in produced tight enough groups. One day I opened up a new box of bullets and decided to weight them. The variance was up to two grains. I shot a three shot group that could be covered almost with a dime, a nickel hide it from that box of bullets.

I purchased a large number of discontinued 140-grain BT Silvertips for the 270. These high quality bullets consistently weigh 140-grains and produce tight groups in two different rifles. They are the original Silvertip design. I guess plastic and silicone sell better.

I shoot a number of bullets and from a hunting standpoint, in recent years the rifle, not the bullet has been the biggest variable. A grain or two does not seem to make a difference.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:20:31 AM »

What more can I ask for. Terrific answers all. Just what I needed to know and it will help me conserve a lot of time on the reloading bench. Thanks again kind folk one and all. What a forum.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:23:33 AM »

I used mixed brass in most of my loads. I very seldom even sort headstamps.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:47:42 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on July 09, 2009, 05:29:56 PM

For hunting uses at realistic ranges such things are just a waste of time.

Even for most target uses, such things are a waste of time unless you are a really good and competitive bench rest shooter.

ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:50:52 AM »

I hunt and don't compete..so I'm with the rest so far. besides, I use mostly rimfire.

skb2706 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2009, 04:03:06 AM »

Ironic you chose the 50gr. Vmax for your example. I have found them to be extremely accurate out to beyond 500 yds. Well past where the typical hunter should/would be shooting. Except for just a cursory sampling I have only weighed a few of the thousands I have shot......I'll still be buying them by the box, off the shelf or even in bulk.

drdougrx · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2009, 04:08:18 AM »

Count me in with GB...all I ever do is worry about this load or that bullet when in truth...it's never really mattered worth a damn. Funny story...I was bear hunting last Sept in maine. A guy had a rifle custom built for this trip in 300RUM. He went on and on about how he worked up the load, trimmed and weighed new cases, disposed of those that weighed outside some criteria that he had, weighed each and every bullet, triple weighed the powder charge and used only fed match primers. His result was a load that shot at least a .75" so he said.....all for that 30 yard shot at a bear over a bait!

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:36:15 AM »

Quote from: drdougrx on July 10, 2009, 04:08:18 AM

Count me in with GB...all I ever do is worry about this load or that bullet when in truth...it's never really mattered worth a damn. Funny story...I was bear hunting last Sept in maine. A guy had a rifle custom built for this trip in 300RUM. He went on and on about how he worked up the load, trimmed and weighed new cases, disposed of those that weighed outside some criteria that he had, weighed each and every bullet, triple weighed the powder charge and used only fed match primers. His result was a load that shot at least a .75" so he said.....all for that 30 yard shot at a bear over a bait!

Dang!!! I guess my 16" .308 won't be enough gun for bear hunting over bait!

I hear you. I have never noticed a difference myself. I mix headstamps with no noticeable affect on accuracy. I have even mixed military and civilian brass in my .223/5.56 without no accuracy difference. (BTW, these were not max loads)

wncchester · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2009, 04:07:26 PM »

"Would you prefer to buy 100 Winchester (as a brand example only) cases that have been full-length resized, neck trimmed to minimum OAL, are all the same weight, have had the primer pocket and flash-hole uniformed, rather than buying an off-the-shelf bag of 100 new cartridges?"

Certainly we would prefer to buy such consistant components, IF they were the same or near same price. As the above answers indicate, few of us would actually see any real world improvement so we wouldn't pay much extra but it would be very nice IF the price was right.

bigjeepman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2009, 02:57:13 AM »

Quote from: drdougrx on July 10, 2009, 04:08:18 AM

Count me in with GB...all I ever do is worry about this load or that bullet when in truth...it's never really mattered worth a damn. Funny story...I was bear hunting last Sept in maine. A guy had a rifle custom built for this trip in 300RUM. He went on and on about how he worked up the load, trimmed and weighed new cases, disposed of those that weighed outside some criteria that he had, weighed each and every bullet, triple weighed the powder charge and used only fed match primers. His result was a load that shot at least a .75" so he said.....all for that 30 yard shot at a bear over a bait!

I have heard and witnessed a few of these types of stories. Funny ...

bjm

Jay, Tx · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2009, 06:36:10 AM »

I find this topic interesting. I have what some might call a compulsive personality. And I maybe a "touch" of a control freak too. I know my wife sees it that way.

I have been known to get pretty anal about brass prep myself. I do find it tedious. But I see it as a one time inconvenience (if one must call it that), and a long term pay-off. Sure, it's not for everyone. And certainly not required even for the minimum gains I sometimes see. I certainly don't brag or complain about the time spent laboring at the task. I just do it to insure that I'm eliminating every possible variable I can in my ammo.

Now I don't segregate projectiles or brass to weight. Although I have tried it I just never saw any realistic gains in doing it. Not for my hunting applications of said rounds. I'm on board with the opinions above, that having a concentric round is going to gain more than having one that isn't but is otherwise consistent component-wise. I can see where a competitive BR shooter would need to go this extra mile to trim a few hundredths off of a 5 shot group. But I only really chase tenths, not hundredths.

All that said, I see nothing wrong with anyone, who enjoys spending time at the bench, going however many extra miles they want to eliminating all the variables they can. How could I? I'm in that crowd, to a certain extent. But to reiterate, I don't boast about it or imply anyone else needs to go to such lengths to load perfectly acceptable ammunition. What I do try to keep in mind on this subject is, what some may find acceptable is not necessarily what others would accept. At least not until the "others" have exhausted all other realistic means of possibly improving the finished product.

Sure, a deer elk, pig, coyote, etc will never notice if the bullet strikes .1", or even .5", off it's intended mark. And I likely wouldn't either in a field situation. But it's my compulsive personality that makes me seek this out at the bench, where it just so happens I shoot many more rounds than I do in the field.

Just my 2 cents, which won't buy much these days.

Jay

briannmilewis · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2009, 08:21:18 AM »

"Certainly we would prefer to buy such consistent components, IF they were the same or near same price. As the above answers indicate, few of us would actually see any real world improvement so we wouldn't pay much extra but it would be very nice IF the price was right."

wncchester - My original intent was to determine if there was an unfilled market niche out there, not being filled by the big player, or even some of the small players. I had come to the conclusion that price would be a factor, and I had also thought, as you expressed so simply, if the components were available for close to the same price as non-uniform components, it would be a nice choice to have. I do understand that a rule of thumb in components has commonly been perceived to be, "the more you pay, the more uniform the components." I am new to reloading and I don't know if that is generally true.

If we take a quick look at 223 brass prices at Midway, a sample show us:

Remington Brass 223 Remington Box of 100 - $24.99
Winchester Brass 223 Remington Box of 100 - $21.49
Hornady Match Brass 223 Remington Box of 100 - $46.99
Nosler Custom Brass 223 Remington Box of 100 - $53.98
Lapua Brass 223 Remington Box of 100 - $57.99
Norma Brass 223 Remington Box of 100 - $100.99

Assuming that Hornady, Nosler and Lapua are the equivalent to more "uniform" Remington and Winchester cases, my twisted logic would lead me to believe that if someone could provide "completely uniform" Remington and Winchester cases for about $30/100, that might be a viable proposition. Of course, you would have to source the cases in bulk like a dealer or distributor in order to make a profit. The idea was to do this on a very small scale without a huge equipment or inventory investment, just to try it and see if it adds enough extra value for folks.

Jay - Like you, I find it interesting messing with the mechanics and engineering of reloading, and yes, I fully understand and totally agree with you about what you do regarding case prep is a choice, and you are not out there advocating anything to others.

Thanks again for your valuable feedback.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2009, 09:15:30 AM »

Nosler brass is match weighted per box with the weight and variaion marked on each box. Now Nosler does NOT make brass so someone is doing it for them. That's why the price is what it is. I've heard it said that Federal supplies their brass but am not sure if that's true or not.

I find as a rule Hornady and Federal are the most uniform weight wise but have to admit that I've not been able to see a noticeable difference in loads put up in those cases as compared to Winchester or RP.

I used to do all that extra case prep and weighting and such but never found it to help. I have also seen one magazine article where the author did all the neat stuff to prep cases and found that the as they came un prepped cases actually shot better.

wncchester · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:17:53 PM »

"wncchester - My original intent was to determine if there was an unfilled market niche out there, not being filled by the big player, or even some of the small players. I had come to the conclusion that price would be a factor, and I had also thought, as you expressed so simply, if the components were available for close to the same price as non-uniform components, it would be a nice choice to have. I do understand that a rule of thumb in components has commonly been perceived to be, "the more you pay, the more uniform the components." I am new to reloading and I don't know if that is generally true."

I understood you. And, it's a good question or I wouldn't have bothered with a response.

I agree that IF we could get more consistant brass for little or no extra cost, many of us would take it. But, as G.B. correctly points out, the potential for better accuracy from factory rifles, which most of us use, is so little that we sure wouldn't pay much extra for it. I think, from what I read, far too many people agonise far too much over which premium brass (or press or dies, etc) is "best." G.B. and I have been loading for a LONGG time and seems we both fail to see much benefit from the high-priced premium cases from Laupua, Norma, etc. I mostly use Remington and Winchester brass because it's easy to find and both do as well as I need for deer hunting inside 300 yards.

In fact, for me anyway, deer inside 100 yards! I hunt in the woods of the Southeast, I hardly ever see a deer beyond that range except from a highway as I ride by some meadow or bean field that I can't shoot over.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:47:23 PM »

Heck if you want to find an unfilled niche, get a couple of metal stamping machines and start making primers. I wish I had the know how and funds, I'd be in the business in a heartbeat. I bet if someone new jumped in the primer game there would all of the sudden be no shortage at all from the big boys. Some of my coworkers service the Olin plant and this story they are circulating that they are running all shifts at full capacity is BS.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2009, 02:47:53 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on July 12, 2009, 09:15:30 AM

Nosler brass is match weighted per box with the weight and variaion marked on each box. Now Nosler does NOT make brass so someone is doing it for them. That's why the price is what it is. I've heard it said that Federal supplies their brass but am not sure if that's true or not.

I doubt Federal makes their brass because Nosler brass seems to have a better useful life than Federal brass which I believe would indicate a different brass source.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2009, 04:07:56 PM »

I bought some Nosler factory loaded ammo, and it's in Norma brass...

That bugs me, as i don't like Norma brass, especially in 9.3x74R!

DM