Author Topic: Can a barrel be re-lugged? (Read 1206 times)

Blackhawker · « **on:** June 07, 2009, 03:17:55 AM »

I was just wondering if a barrel can be re-lugged to fit a specific rifle. Has anyone tried this? It seems like something that only the factory can or might do. With that, does anyone know if H&R would re-lug a barrel and if so, how much it might cost?

Blackhawker · « **Reply #1 on:** June 08, 2009, 04:49:44 AM »

Well, I see there have been a lot of views to this posting but no replies. I suppose I should include more information and/or intentions on the subject which might offer a better platform for replies.

Basically I purchased a barrel for a Handi/BC/etc from another member here. The barrel is in perfect condition and appears to have been used very little. The only problem I have with the barrel is that it doesn't lock up as tight as it should on two of my frames. When I took it to a gunsmith to see if he could shim the lug, he had confirmed what I had suspected from my original observations of the barrel when I first took it out of the box. With gauges, instruments as well as his experienced eyes etc, he was able to demonstrate that the lug hinge point was not perfectly round. In fact, it appears to have been cut at somewhat of an angle. He said it appears that perhaps it may have been "adjusted" by an inexperienced individual with a dremmel or similar tool as indicated by the secondary grinding marks in the hing point arc. In his expert/professional opinion, he said that the barrel is more than likely useless. Shimming a hing point such as this is not straightforward being that the hing point arc is cut at an angle and that it has two radii.

So, here is where my original question comes into play; Can a new lug be placed on the barrel so that the barrel will fit properly on any Handi or BC or have I been taken and am now stuck with a useless barrel?

snapcrackpop · « **Reply #2 on:** June 08, 2009, 04:54:17 AM »

Opps, wrong idea.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 08, 2009, 04:55:32 AM »

I am in the same boat as you.
There are a coupla article in the FAQ about barrel fitting.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,26264.0.html
And these tips are in the process of helping me out right now... I am trying the a bedding method.

James

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #4 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:10:29 AM »

If it is the hinge point, I can't see why you cannot oversize the lug radius by a couple of thousandths, then using shim stock and steel epoxy get it to fit adequately.

What caliber?

Blackhawker · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:18:34 AM »

The question becomes where to start the cut. The cut on this underlug is at an angle. (higher on one side and lower on the other)...as if someone hacked at it with a dremmel tool and no guides.

It's a 38-55 barrel which chambers my ammo very nicely. Do to the improper fit, however, I haven't fired it (obviously).

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:27:11 AM »

Quote from: Blackhawker on June 08, 2009, 05:18:34 AM

The question becomes where to start the cut. The cut on this underlug is at an angle. (higher on one side and lower on the other)...as if someone hacked at it with a dremmel tool and no guides.

It's a 38-55 barrel which chambers my ammo very nicely. Do to the improper fit, however, I haven't fired it (obviously).

That's the beauty about viscous epoxy, it doesn't care where it flows to. If you take off just enough metal to get a properly curved shim, and a wee bit of epoxy behind it then it doesn't matter if its uniform, symmetrical, or even pretty.

Who cares if the top left has 2 thousands more steelweld behind it than the bottom right, as long as the shim wraps the hinge, and the shim is properly supported, then let the symmetry gremlins choke on your epoxy.

You at least owe it to yourself to try before you start thinking of relugging.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:45:50 AM »

H&R doesn't remove and reinstall underlugs if that helps any. When I had my 6.5x55 done, my gunsmith intended on cutting the underlug off the donor barrel then welding it on the Shilen blank, after getting the pieces in hand, he decided that wasn't practical and chose to do a stub instead. I've used epoxy and shims on many barrels that had been "fitted" by previous owners, I'd use a file that's bigger in diameter than .375" to cut the pivot oversize, but squared up to the underlug which my converted chain saw sharpening jig does an excellent job of, then shim it appropriately and cut the new pivot as needed to fit, you could just use epoxy too, that's been done also.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:58:16 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on June 08, 2009, 05:45:50 AM

H&R doesn't remove and reinstall underlugs if that helps any. When I had my 6.5x55 done, my gunsmith intended on cutting the underlug off the donor barrel then welding it on the Shilen blank, after getting the pieces in hand, he decided that wasn't practical and chose to do a stub instead. I've used epoxy and shims on many barrels that had been "fitted" by previous owners, I'd use a file that's bigger in diameter than .375" to cut the pivot oversize, but squared up to the underlug which my converted chain saw sharpening jig does an excellent job of, then shim it appropriately and cut the new pivot as needed to fit, you could just use epoxy too, that's been done also.

Tim

Thanks for the info on the underlug and the added info on the shimming Tim.
Does the shimming last or does it wear out and the barrel become loose in a relatively short time? Have you ever had a shim job wear out?
For some reason, I envision shimming a barrel lug as being somewhat similar to a dental filling or cap. Nothing is ever as good as the original tooth. Although I've had fillings that have lasted for 20 or more years, they are really only supposed to last for 5 to 10 years. I'm sure you can see the analogy here.
What do you think?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2009, 06:13:05 AM »

Most shooters probably won't shoot enough to wear one out, but even the factory underlug has been known to wear enough for the barrel to be loose on the frame, the 500S&W is well noted for that, mine has 120 rounds stout loads thru it and is still tight as can be, but I also improved on it by fitting metal in the unsupported section of the pivot as detailed in the FAQs. I also did an epoxied .026" stainless shim on a 270 Ultracomp barrel that was one of the barrels that had previously been "fitted" by someone else, I shot 60 rounds thru it before selling it, it's still going strong last I heard from Doug (canon6). The nice thing about epoxy is anyone can replace it IF it does wear out, some members just use drink can shims and replace them as needed!!

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2009, 06:28:29 AM »

Thanks for the info Tim. As usual, you've got things down with these rifles and always have experience behind your answers! Being that this is a 38-55 and I'm not intending on shooting rocket-powered loads, perhaps I can re-evaluate the shimming idea on this barrel.

Thanks again,
Blackhawker

troy5775 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2009, 01:00:36 PM »

I have dealt with about 8 different barrels and only had to shim one. Used a Coke can shim and superglue gel. I have had it on about a year now and it is still in place.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2009, 09:50:19 AM »

Quote from: MrJames680 on June 08, 2009, 04:55:32 AM

I am in the same boat as you.
There are a coupla article in the FAQ about barrel fitting.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,26264.0.html
And these tips are in the process of helping me out right now... I am trying the a bedding method.

James

James, any luck with the re-fitting of that barrel?

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:10:34 AM »

Short answer is yes they can be relugged .................... But
It will require someone with a means of making very accurate measurements and welding equiptment as well as a lot of expertise in machineing and Tig welding.Not a job for the typical do it your self person.
I am in the process of building a 250 Savage from scratch for a Handi frame.However I do have access to a fully equipped machine shop including a very expensive laser measuring system. Without it I would not have even started the project.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2009, 05:07:04 AM »

Update on barrel....here is what I discovered:

The new barrel in question fits loose on both of my frames. On the H&R frame, it is most loose and on the W&H frame it fits almost correctly. Unfortunately, I want this barrel for my H&R frame. The barrel locks correctly with hardly a gap of light at the top between the frame and the barrel face. The only area that is loose is in a sideways motion (without the fore-end mounted). There is no looseness in an up and downward travel, only side to side. On the H&R frame, the sideways motion (looseness) is quite noticeable. When I mount my barrels from my W&H frame on the H&R frame, I get the same movement from side to side yet when I mount the H&R barrel on the W&H frame, it won't even lock shut and seems very tight.

I am wondering if the new 38-55 barrel in question is actually an older barrel from W&H since it fits the same as my other older barrels.

Since there is hardly a gap at the top (looking the same as my other barrels on appropriate frames) and no looseness in an up and down plane, I wonder how I can fix the lateral movement. Is lateral movement as opposed to vertical looseness acceptable since it is compensated by the fore-end when mounted? Does the lateral movement have anything to do at all with the hinge cut or shimming?

A question to all: When you don't have your fore-end mounted, do any of your barrels move laterally (left to right, not up and down) as I have described? Any help on this would be great. I'm thinking I may just keep this barrel and work with it.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2009, 05:25:20 AM »

ANY looseness when the action is locked up isn't good, H&R would replace a factory fitted barrel in that condition, but some have reported acceptable accuracy, just depends on how consistent the lockup is, it certainly wouldn't be consistent if it locked up in a different position each time the action was opened and closed. If latch engagement is sufficient, shoot it and see how it does, but it should be shimmed to proper fit for best accuracy.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #16 on:** July 23, 2009, 05:37:58 AM »

The barrel does seem to lock appropriately and consistently on my frame, it just wobbles a bit. I did notice that the wear on the latch shelf seems to be on one side from the previous user, indicating a one sided lock-up. I don't know how much he used the barrel however. It seems clean and maybe a hundred or two rounds fired from it at best.

My first concern (before accuracy) is safety. As I can tell, the lock-up seems solid and therefore seems safe. Now it's the accuracy part. I'd hate to rely on the fore-end buffer for lateral stability and accuracy.

I think I'll mount up a scope on it and see what happens. If it's all over the place then I'll have to look into shimming. I'd really like it tight before I shoot it though....there's just something about looseness that bothers me for shooting. I just don't know if shimming will take away the lateral movement since the front and back seem tight.

I guess a trip to the range will determine it.

Thanks Tim. It's my first second-hand barrel purchase so I guess I'm just going through and learning the motions that all of you Handi veterans have experience many times over.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 23, 2009, 05:53:07 AM »

As Richard learned, it's real important to check latch engagement before shooting it. I'd also see check with feeler guage blades to see how much clearance there is between standing breech and barrel face, on each side, if there's a big gap on one side, you likely still can't see any light across the barrel face.

FWIW, I've fitted many barrels, more than 2 dozen, none were loose in any way after fitting, none of my factory fitted barrels have been loose either, it's just not a good thing. I don't remember what the spec was, but Fred I think mentioned that .001" lateral movement at the breech end of the barrel translate into a very noticeably change at 100yds.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #18 on:** July 23, 2009, 06:09:04 AM »

All good points Tim!
I read about Richard's latch failure. Fortunately he didn't have anything serious happen. I'd definitely hate to have a trip to the range end up as a trip to the hospital. I'll have to check with the feeler gauge. Good point about light passing through. You'll only see the smallest gap, not the largest. I'll probably hold off on shooting it on a second thought.

Do you think that lateral movement can be cured by shimming or is there something else I'm missing here? The way I see it, if there is a lateral movement without vertical movement, then the hinge lug is locking in on a high point or the hinge pin has a high point. I'll assume its the hinge and not the pin since my 45LC barrel (from full factory rifle) fits perfectly. I suppose placing a straight feeler type gauge against the hinge surface will determine any uneven surfaces.

Any ideas of what to use for that? Do you think shimming with something that form-fits will solve the problem? I guess I'm at a loss here. I thought shimming would compensate an overall gap on an overall loose barrel fit (left, right, AND up, down). It seems like the problem here might just be a high point. Would a shim fix that?

Sorry for all of the questions. Again, I'm new to this.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:16:56 AM »

First step is to make sure the barrel face is flat, once that's done, then the barrel can be shimmed to fit, if the breech face is irregular, you're not going to get a good fit. All of this is covered in the barrel fitting instructions in the FAQs.

Tim

AtlLaw · « **Reply #20 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:32:48 AM »

Quote from: Blackhawker on July 23, 2009, 06:09:04 AM

It seems like the problem here might just be a high point.

This is definately something you want to check. I worked with a friends .308 Ultra which was driving me crazy. With Tim's guidence we worked through the problem. I now know (for many reasons I won't take time to mention here) that the barrel face was uneven with high points on one side. These points were being peened down by shooting, which effected/increased the barrel-standing breach lockup/gap.

Now, my opinion is that if I plan to do ANY work on the barrel/standing breach fit I start with squaring the barrel face.

Darn it!

Tim posted while I was typing!

I knowed he would... $:-\$ just not this... quick!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:39:45 AM »

Don't they call this putting the bbls back on face ? At least with shotguns .
If so its done all the time , some weld on extra metal then refit it .others over size the pin and fit bbl to action .

Blackhawker · « **Reply #22 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:56:43 AM »

The "barrel face" in which you are referring, is this the face of the barrel on the chamber end or are you referring to the lug hinge face being flat?

(OK, I'm showing my lack of knowledge here)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** July 23, 2009, 09:17:10 AM »

The bbl to breech face , to put back on face the hinge pin joint has to be tight and in correct alingment . I have not looked at the handi for some time but an easy way in some cases is to over size the hinge pin and adjust the radius on the lug to match . I can't say anything is wrong with shims either .

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:05:56 AM »

Quote from: Blackhawker on July 23, 2009, 08:56:43 AM

The "barrel face" in which you are referring, is this the face of the barrel on the chamber end or are you referring to the lug hinge face being flat?

(OK, I'm showing my lack of knowledge here)

The barrel face is the breech end of the barrel that meets the standing breech, it needs to be flat, I've not seen one yet that was. It should be square to the pivot surface too, and proper fitting can make that happen.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:26:02 AM »

I would have never guessed that the barrel face would actually be non-flat. Huh...I'll have to check when I get home. I guess that's what you get for a $200 to $350 rifle.

If it's not flat, what do you do to flatten it? Won't that effect everything as far as fit goes should one take a side down a bit to even it out?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:31:54 AM »

Blackhawker · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:56:48 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 23, 2009, 10:31:54 AM

.

Oh yeah.....sorry!

jedman · « **Reply #28 on:** July 25, 2009, 07:17:25 AM »

I have done 2 barrels that had a similar problem like yours, ( very loose & the lug cut was crooked ) by using a 7/16 ths end mill and plunge cutting the notch to get it straight. You need a milling machine or at least a decent drill press with a vice that will hold your barrel on its side and can be securely clamped or bolted to the drill press table so it cannot move when plunge cutting. Then you need a bushing or a shim that can be soldered or epoxyed in the new cut. Then its a matter of using a 3/8 end mill and recutting the pivot notch a little at a time and keep trying the barrel on your frame until it will close with near zero clearance at the standing breech. This methood does take some time and equipment to do, but if your pivot notch is really crooked or needs more than a .015 shim to get it locked up tight , its a good fix. I think there is enough material on the lug to go even to 1/2 " if you wanted a thicker shim or cant find a 7/ 16 end mill, 1/2 " is more common and you can probably find a pre made steel bushing with a 1/2" OD. then you need to cut and file it to fit, hope you get the idea.
Good Luck ! Jed

AtlLaw · « **Reply #29 on:** July 25, 2009, 08:25:57 AM »

or a very fine file, a good eye and a steady hand...