Finishing a 8mm Mauser project......finally!

[Drilling Man]

But then someone who owns a Kreighoff probably has a bit more money to spend on bullets than someone with a sporterised k98.

  I bought my Krieghoff in the early 80's for $350.00...  You still want to go there?

  DM

[kombi1976]

Do I want to go there??!!
You're the one who made the crack about being broke and not being able to afford good quality bullets!
If I was that cheap do you think I would I have spent over $800 on this rifle, the one this thread is all about?
I explained my reasoning on why I was using 150gr bullets and price was one of 4 important factors.
I might add that price was actually the lowest priority of those factors since you choose to make an issue of it.
If I already had a high quality firearm that loved heavy bullets and would not shoot lighter ones then like you I would stick to heavy ones.
But given the choice to rebarrel and rechamber an existing rifle of second rate performance I chose to have it done so it would suit my purposes.
It is no coincidence that price was one of those purposes but if I'd REALLY been cheap I would've had it chambered to 243 Win because 243 is common as muck, the projectiles are light and lots of them are made so the end result is cheap reloading if that is the aim.
And in the end my biggest concern about heavy bullets and the shooting I normally do was that the game I hunt weren't stopping or even slowing down heavy bullets enough when they were hit by them.
As far as the comment about the Kreighoff costing $350, I think I can be excused for believing you have a little more money than I when the current Kreighoff drillings start at about US$7000 and even 2nd hand drillings are quite pricey.
So how about we drop this now and leave the dollar issue out of it.

[Drilling Man]

As far as the comment about the Kreighoff costing $350, I think I can be excused for believing you have a little more money than I when the current Kreighoff drillings start at about US$7000 and even 2nd hand drillings are quite pricey.

  I've turned down 3 "decent" drillings lately, that had an asking price of less than $3,000.00, one of them was even scoped with a asking price of $1,500.00...  You don't have to be rich to own a drilling, all you "really" need, is to want one enough to look for a deal on one...

Do I want to go there??!!
You're the one who made the crack about being broke and not being able to afford good quality bullets!

  "If" your going to quote me, quote me exactly, don't add-lib to what i said...  Here's my "quote"..

  If i was so broke that i couldn't afford a good quality bullet for my 8mm, then i never would have started that project....  OR i just would give up something else untill after i had decent bullets bought up...

  Given your statement that you were/are concerned that heavy bullets were more expensive, i don't think i was out of line stateing how i feel...  I never said you had to use what i use, i was just making a point that heavy bullets work well on big and small animals...

  I have considered building a big bore rifle, (470 Nitro) and haven't done so because of the expensive of the ammo and components to shoot it.  So as you see i do practise what i preach...

  DM

[kombi1976]

Since you clearly don't want to let it drop I'll answer each of your points as you make them.

I've turned down 3 "decent" drillings lately, that had an asking price of less than $3,000.00, one of them was even scoped with a asking price of $1,500.00...  You don't have to be rich to own a drilling, all you "really" need, is to want one enough to look for a deal on one...

This seems logical.
And to be honest if I'd been able to find a scoped drilling for $1500 I would've bought it instead of the Tikka T3 Lite Stainless I bought early last year.
But remember.....you mean US dollars.
Currently US$1500 = AUD$2,270.
That's a big difference in anyone's language.
And to be considering drillings less than US$3000 means considering drillings AUD$4,540 or less.
That's a big difference for me.
I'm on a single income and have a wife, 3 kids, a mortgage and 2 cars to run so I have big trouble justifying $1500 on a rifle and scope.
I know....I chose to get married, I chose to have the kids, I chose to buy the house and the 2 cars are a result of the married/kids thing......but that doesn't change things.
There is a limited amount of money.
And then there's the whole market size issue.
Australia has 20 million and less than 1 million of those people are shooters so the amount of guns in the market, new and 2nd hand, is much lower.
There aren't many drillings and the people who bought them had to pay more so the prices are high.
And because of 911 it's near well impossible to ship anything out of the USA where prices are good.....but then you have the exchange rate again.
So, as you can see, things are just not that simple.

"If" your going to quote me, quote me exactly, don't add-lib to what i said...  Here's my "quote"..

  If i was so broke that i couldn't afford a good quality bullet for my 8mm, then i never would have started that project....  OR i just would give up something else untill after i had decent bullets bought up...

Given your statement that you were/are concerned that heavy bullets were more expensive, i don't think i was out of line stateing how i feel...

You can feel what you like but you took one of the four points and made it the focus which, as I said before, was ridiculous considering how much money I've spent on this project.

I never said you had to use what i use, i was just making a point that heavy bullets work well on big and small animals...

Point taken.
But my point was that lighter bullets work just as well on small animals and are less inclined to exit with considerable energy and accidentally destroy something in the distance.
Besides, a 150gr pill is NOT a light bullet.
It may be considered light for calibre but that is all. 

I have considered building a big bore rifle, (470 Nitro) and haven't done so because of the expensive of the ammo and components to shoot it.  So as you see i do practise what i preach...

Congratulations.
What would you like me to say?
You didn't build the 470 NE project because you saw no way to compromise.
I, on the other hand, did build this project because there was a way to compromise.
Most of the game I shoot is small to medium and therefore does not require heavy bullets.
Often shots are assisted by a flatter trajectory and a faster MV.
The rifle does not recoil as much with these bullets.
And, surprise, surprise, the bonus is that the lighter bullets cost less.
Can you expect me not to see this as a good thing?
BTW, this rifle will shoot heavy bullets as well as light ones and I ensured this by getting a 1:10" bbl twist.

[rickt300]

I would have liked for my rifle to shoot 150 grain bullets well enough to hunt with, just to have lighter recoil if nothing else.

[Drilling Man]

  Kombi,

  There's nothing to let go...  You are taking my post as argumentive, and i didn't post them that way...  Explaining my post, seems to make you get even more argumentive, and it shouldn't...

  Anyway, i didn't buy the drillings either...  I also don't have a lot of money, and that means i can't buy every "good deal" that comes along...  I've spent much more of my life wondering around in the bush hunting, than i ever did making money...

  These days i'm selling off things i really don't need, and buying the few guns that i always wanted...  Like this double rifle,



  And, that leads me to the .470 that i "didn't" buy...  I could never afford to feed it in the amount i would like to shoot it.  This one is 9.3x74R, and it's "affordable" to shoot.  It's also big enough for anything i'll ever shoot with it...

  DM

[kombi1976]

Sorry if I seem snappy DM.
I just get my hackles up when I run up against the "expensive is best" jerks of which you are clearly not one.
As I said before, money is pretty tight and yet I still try not to short change myself on components.
As we all well know it's false economy.
Perhaps one day I'll be in the situation to sell things in order to generate the funds for things I'd really like.
At present I'm considering doing the same thing for my other love, aircooled VW Buses.
It's the old "what if" that is holding me back.
But as you suggest needs and "what ifs" are greatly different.
In this case I don't really need a couple of super rare but rusty old VW Country Buggies which need a lot of TLC and welding for even a "back-on-the-road" resto and I would love a good set of alloys for my '67 VW Panel.
I have no welding skills, little time and no extra money so I may instead be using the capital for some good alloys.
But I digress, and pretty badly as this is a gun forum! 
Your double rifle looks really nice.
Maybe I'll eventually be able to sell some other stuff and get the Kreighoff 12g/12g/7x65R drilling with 9.3x74R insert bbls that I've dreamed about.
Having said that, I already have a 9.3x62 and it shot a 0.73" 3-shot group @100m the other day.......needs and dreams, eh?! 

I would have liked for my rifle to shoot 150 grain bullets well enough to hunt with, just to have lighter recoil if nothing else.

Rick, I think a lot of guys would like to shoot 150gr pills in their 8x57.
When you look back at the history of the 8x57JS they were originally loaded with a 154gr FMJ Spitzgeschoss (pointy bullet) and at the time (around WW1) they actually out performed the 30-06 load which pushed a 150gr FMJ.
The advent of tanks saw the Germans move to the 196gr pill and from then on most production 8mm Mausers have had long throats.
Additionally when comparing the figures of the 8x57 to the 308 Win with identical bullet mass the 8mm is more powerful with less pressure.
So when I had my Mauser rebarrelled one of the important points was to have the throat shorter so I could enjoy the best of both worlds as it were.

[Drilling Man]

  After thinking about this thread for a time, i remembered that i worked up a "light" small game load in my Krieghoff using 150 Sierra's...  I did this because at "that" time i didn't have any insert bbls for it...

  Anyway, i went back and found my OLD notes and a couple OLD targets...  I wanted to show them here, so here they are...



  They didn't shoot that good with full power loads though...

  DM

[kombi1976]

Insert bbls??!!
Ok, time to fess up.
Which cals do you have?

[Drilling Man]

Perhaps one day I'll be in the situation to sell things in order to generate the funds for things I'd really like.

  The BIG deal for me was to get my home and land paid for...  I put all the money i had into paying it off for many years so as not to pay so much interest!  It was a good choise for me!

Insert bbls??!!  Ok, time to fess up.  Which cals do you have?

  Because i was in the bush so much, (in Alaska)  and at times i had a need to shoot something small to eat, i was always longing for a 22LR to have with me.  I did carry a 22 handgun at times, but i could see that an "insert bbl." would be much better, so i bought two short Krieghoff insert bbls., one in 22LR and the other in 22WMR...  They cost me less than $100.00 each...

  They are VERY handy and easy to carry,



  And accurate...



  And no matter how many times it goes in and out, it always comes back to zero!

  All these years later, i'm still using them, and still loving them...



  DM

[nomosendero]

Very nice, DM!!

[kombi1976]

Wow, DM, you're a really fortunate guy.
Of course, as you said, you bought it at the right time.
Man, have I gotta get me one of those one day!

[prairiedog555]

I bought a trigger from Boyd's for my Yugo mauser.  Had my gunsmith install.  It only cost $35.  I and my gunsmith were both impressed.  It is about 2lb. and breaks Right Now.  I like it.

[kombi1976]

It's amazing how much a single stage adjustable trigger can improve the accuracy of a shooter.
The rifle is the same but the control is infinitely better.

[rickt300]

I have reworked some of my Mauser miltary triggers to single stage and lightened them. There is usually a bit of travel though not much and it is easy to get them down to around 3 pounds.  However I have rifles with both Boyd and Timney triggers and I like them both.

[lgm270]

I really enjoyed this thread.  A fun read.  Compliments to all.

[kombi1976]

Well, lgm270, you and rest of the lads get to see your truly in living colour!
Don't worry, it's not one of those seedy vids!
Here's a range test I did yesterday with the Mauser.
I thought that I could take pics and post them with a bit of a story and then thought "Wait a sec....my camera has a video setting!"
So here you are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtEcVe96BLQ

Let me know what you think. 

[Cheesehead]

Great video, good information, well produced.  Especially interesting for Mauser fans. I see youtube has many other M98 videos.

Cheese

[kombi1976]

Thanks mate.
YouTube does have plenty of M98 vids, although most if not all are of M98s in military configuration.
Not many people choose to stick with 8x57 when they rebarrel. 
Still, their loss! 

[lgm270]

Thanks mate.
YouTube does have plenty of M98 vids, although most if not all are of M98s in military configuration.
Not many people choose to stick with 8x57 when they rebarrel. 
Still, their loss! 

What do you most admire about the 8x57?  Why did you chose it over other calibers?

[kombi1976]

What do you most admire about the 8x57?  Why did you chose it over other calibers?

Good question, lgm.
If you want to get down to brass tacks the 8x57 was the first rimless high powered rifle cartridge.
It predates the 7x57 by about 5 years and although it's first load in the original German Commission 8x57J cartridge (.318" cal 225gr pill) was fairly anaemic by today's standards it fired up the competition.
Then the M98 and the development of the 8x57JS cartridge with it's matching .323" cal 154gr spitzgeschoss bullet made it the most lethal military cartridge in the world.
The US took their lead from this bullet and even though the '06 was a bigger cartridge the German powder technology meant that during WW1 the 8x57JS was pushing a 150gr pill much faster than the '06.
And the 8x57 isn't much bigger than a 308 case.
It's almost as compact and yet it pushes out bullets of equal weight faster with a larger meplat and less pressure.
With European loads it is a match for the '06.
But to be honest my choice of the 8mm was on practical and financial grounds as well as an appreciation and respect for its performance.
Having owned the rifle for a while with its original bbl I'd already invested in quite a bit brass, projectiles and reloading dies.
I was unlikely to recoup the cost if I decided to go for another cal and besides, the action was specifically designed for 8x57JS.
Why mess with the manufacturers intentions?
So there you go.
I could've said it all in one line I guess.
I like the history and the performance, the action was designed for it and I didn't want to lose money on components.
But as my wife says "If you can say something in 10 words you prefer to say it in 100." 

[lgm270]

I noted your preference for the 150 grain bullet, which is probably adequate for any of your needs.


I have always thought the optimal bullets in the 8x57 mm were 180 and 200 grainers.   You can get 2,700 with the 180 and 2,600 with the 200.  The Nosler manual reports 2,700 with the 200 grain partition, but most handloaders can't duplicate that one.    I've read the customer reviews of .323" bullets on Midway and most rave about the 150 grainer for deer, but the the 180 and 200 grain bullets would seem better for larger animals. 

I like the idea of the 180 grain Nosler B-Tip  at 2,700.  This is 30-06  velocity  with a bullet that makes a .323" hole.   The Barnes  180 grain X bullet looks interesting, but most use this bullet in the 8mm Rem mag or the .325 Winchester Mag.

 Of course Woodleigh makes a 250 grain RN and Hawk Bullets makes a  wide selection from 150 to a 280 grain RN(!).   I'm not sure what is  the point of a 280 grain .323"  bullet, but it would be fund to try them out I suppose, except for the fact that the 280 grain bullet is a custom special run item with a minimum order of 3 boxes at $43.00 per box. 

[kombi1976]

Yes, I did choose the 150gr because most of the game I hunt is small to medium game like hares, foxes, roos, goats and pigs.
It should also be ample for smaller deer species like fallow.
It's true that 8mm does benefit from 180gr and 200gr pills in many rifles but I had the throat chambered a little shorter to ensure it would shoot the 150 grainers well.
It seems to have worked so far.
I'm yet to test some 175gr Sierra SPs but I reckon they'll work similarly if not a little better.
I was just beginning to be concerned about the post-terminal behaviour of the 8mm bullets.
A friend of mine shot a fox with his 8x57 last year using a 170gr bullet and he heard it smack a fencepost 100yds behind afterward! 
Even with a 150gr it's likely to have much more energy than a fox or a hare can stop but at least it's easier slowed and destablised.
I wasn't even aware that Nosler still made the 180gr BT.
I tried the Nosler with the original bbl when I first got my Mauser and found that for roughly double the cost it didn't really deliver any more performance than the 8mm 170gr Speer HotCor SMP.
Maybe it would be better in the new bbl but I can't see the point.
And Barnes bullets are prohibitively expensive here.
Woodleighs cost around the AUD$35 for a box 50 while the X Bullets cost in the realm of AUD$70 per 50!!
And these are renowned for being "love 'em or hate 'em" pills......either your rifle shoots them well or shockingly.
I'd rather buy 200gr Woodleigh Protected Points (like Mag Tips) any day of the week for a 8mm Rem Mag or 325 WSM.
But those Hawk Bullets look fascinating.
Are they 100 or 50 boxes?
I wish I could get some of their 200gr RTs for my 9.3x62.
You're right about the 8mm 280gr RT though.
I'm unsure exactly what you could use them for.
Only an 8mm Rem Mag or 8x68mm RWS could deliver them with true authority and both really would only use them for big African or Alaskan game.
If they were matched with an identical solid they could make for a truly bone breaking load.......on both ends of course!! 
Working everything out you could probably push a 280gr at about 2350fps out of a 8mm Rem Mag.
It would pack 3430 ftlbs of ME and probably have a max PBR of about 230yds but in an 7lb rifle (since everyone seems only interested in mountain rifles these days) it would pack 41 ftlbs of recoil! 
And that's a little beside the point for this thread.
The 280gr, doing rough figures, is probably up for about 2000fps out of an 8x57JS which gives it 2487 ftlbs of ME and a PBR of about 200yds.
Recoil drops considerably though, even in a 7lb rifle, to 23 ftlbs.
But unless you were taking on big hogs at close range this wouldn't be my bullet of choice for a 8x57JS.
I do have some 250gr Woodleigh RNSNs though and I intend to work up a sambar deer load with them.
Woodleigh claims they can be loaded up to do 2200fps and with that sort of load they should have a PBR of 215yds and 2687 ftlbs of ME.
But first thing first I need to finalise the 150gr load and do the 175gr SPs.

[RaySendero]

Yes, I did choose the 150gr because most of the game I hunt is small to medium game like hares, foxes, roos, goats and pigs.
It should also be ample for smaller deer species like fallow.
It's true that 8mm does benefit from 180gr and 200gr pills in many rifles but I had the throat chambered a little shorter to ensure it would shoot the 150 grainers well.
It seems to have worked so far.
I'm yet to test some 175gr Sierra SPs but I reckon they'll work similarly if not a little better.
I was just beginning to be concerned about the post-terminal behaviour of the 8mm bullets.
A friend of mine shot a fox with his 8x57 last year using a 170gr bullet and he heard it smack a fencepost 100yds behind afterward! 
Even with a 150gr it's likely to have much more energy than a fox or a hare can stop but at least it's easier slowed and destablised.
I wasn't even aware that Nosler still made the 180gr BT.
I tried the Nosler with the original bbl when I first got my Mauser and found that for roughly double the cost it didn't really deliver any more performance than the 8mm 170gr Speer HotCor SMP.
Maybe it would be better in the new bbl but I can't see the point.
And Barnes bullets are prohibitively expensive here.
Woodleighs cost around the AUD$35 for a box 50 while the X Bullets cost in the realm of AUD$70 per 50!!
And these are renowned for being "love 'em or hate 'em" pills......either your rifle shoots them well or shockingly.
I'd rather buy 200gr Woodleigh Protected Points (like Mag Tips) any day of the week for a 8mm Rem Mag or 325 WSM.
But those Hawk Bullets look fascinating.
Are they 100 or 50 boxes?

But first thing first I need to finalise the 150gr load and do the 175gr SPs.

kombi,

I know you prefer the light bullets, but I don't see where anyone mentioned the 0.323 Rem 185 CoreLokt yet.  If you can get'em - They are an economical bullet in the 8x57 that should fit that short chambered rifle well due to the quick taper.  Rem sells them in 100ct and bulk in 500, 1000 and 2000ct.  You may want to work-up a load with them - That way you could try them out and already have a reload if you come up on a good sale.

[kombi1976]

Ironically I see a lot of Remington rifles and ammo here but not a great many of their projectiles, at least in comparison to Sierra, Nosler, Hornady and Speer.
I'm sure the 185gr Corelokt is a good pill but I've found Sierras always served me well and I tend to buy Sierra, Speer or Hornady depending on the rifle.
And since 185gr is wandering into that "more weight than I need" territory I hadn't even considered them.
For really big deer I'll always sling my 9.3x62 or use the 250gr Woodleigh 8mm bullets I spoke of before so there isn't really a need to find an interim load.
And since I don't shoot every weekend I'm hardly likely to run through that many projectiles to need a bulk pack.
But thanks for the suggestion.

[kombi1976]

More progress with the Mauser.
I borrowed a Chrony last weekend and checked the Sierra 150gr SPT load I've perfected.
I trickled the loads to make them as precise as possible and these were the results:

• 1 - 2893 fps
• 2 - 2895 fps
• 3 - 2899 fps
• 4 - 2902 fps
• 5 - 2886 fps

That's an average MV of 2895 fps, more or less a match for a 308 Win with a similar bullet, and with the Sierra's BC of .336 I created this ballistic table:



I'm pretty satisfied with that.
And they've already proved their worth in the field when I took some hares with it a few weeks back.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,176880.0.html
It's just a pity I have to start from scratch with my Woodleigh 250gr RNSN loads.