Author Topic: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?  (Read 645 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« on: July 16, 2009, 06:04:41 AM »
This small iron cannon is displayed in the Ventura County CA museum, where it is identified as a Spanish cannon.  I'm almost positive it wasn't made in Spain since Spain had all the copper and tin it could use, so the vast majority of smaller Spanish pieces pieces were bronze.  Also, Spain rarely if ever used a "belted cascabel" which was however quite common in British pieces.  To me it looks like a large swivel gun.  Unfortunately the friend who sent me these photos didn't get a length measurement, but the bore is 2.75 inches, which is too small for a 3-pounder-it is more likely something like an eroded 2-pounder or possibly 2 1/2 pounder. 

The only really distinctive feature I see on it is the interesting arrangement for rimbases which extends underneath the cannon, to reinforce the low trunnions.  The only other cannons I've seen this on were French one-pounder swivel guns, Model 1786.  Those were exclusively bronze, however.













Any ideas?

Offline KABAR2

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 06:26:37 AM »
Cannonmn your link is asking us to  log in.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2009, 06:40:04 AM »
Quote
Cannonmn your link is asking us to  log in.

Thanks Allen, I went back and redid the initial post, so you should see all the pix there now.  Neat little gun, don't you think?  Very classic lines.  If Ventura County is as poor as the rest of the State, maybe I should make them an offer on it!

Offline Mike Hardwick

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2009, 07:46:23 AM »
Just a couple of quick comments on this cannon.  I am pretty sure it's not for sale.  It is in the Ventura County Historical Society Museum.  This cannon may have been originally brought to the Presidio of Santa Barbara by the frigate Aranzazú in 1795.  It is on the garrison inventory for 1798, and it may also be the 4 pounder listed in the presidio bulwarte for 1818.  Jim Martinez, a native of Ventura,  argues that this is one of the cannons brought to Ventura from Santa Barbara in 1838 by General Castro in a skirmish initiated by him at the time.  The cannon may have fired on the Mission there, and I think there still may be a cannon ball in the mission tower from it.

I came up with the caliber as being a 3 pounder from the bore measurement. Binkerhoff and Chamberlain show a bronze 3 pounder on page 133 of their book on spanish Military Weapons.  It is 38 inches long and has a bore size of 2 3/4 inches.

If indeed this tube was delivered to Santa Barbara in 1795, it came from the Spanish Naval base in San Blas.  They regularly stockpiled supplies and armament there for Spanish ships operating in the Western Pacific and Northwest Coast.  As to Spanish not casting tubes in iron, I believe that is not really true.  I have seen reference to iron foundries in the Philippines that did indeed cast iron tubes.  When we talk about the Spanish Empire of the 18th Century, we need to keep in mind  that this included territories which had vast mineral resources.  Iron was certainly available, but copper, tin, and other such metals were abundant.  It is not unusual, for example, to find Spanish canister shot made of copper ball.

Please comment on this tube.  It could very well be English.  The Spanish captured English shipping.  I believe there is one such case where an English ship was taken as a prize in Nootka.  The British packet "Argonaut", captain James Colnett, was captured in Nootka in 1789.  There were others that were taken there as well.  Provisions from these ships could have easily wound up in Santa Barbara by way of San Blas.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 08:12:00 AM »
Mike Hardwick is going to prove to be a valuable addition to this board; Me thinks!

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 08:35:10 AM »
Mike great information, and WELCOME to the forum!
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 01:08:58 PM »
Thanks for the additional info Mike.

Quote
Binkerhoff and Chamberlain show a bronze 3 pounder on page 133 of their book on spanish Military Weapons.  It is 38 inches long and has a bore size of 2 3/4 inches.

There's a lot of good info in Brinckerhoff, and it is one of the only illustrated books on Spanish cannon published in the English language.  However there are mistakes.  The 7" eprouvette mortar is  described as being some kind of naval mortar, and not identified as what it is, a gunpowder tester.  Captions on figures are switched, etc, etc.  However it has a lot of good information and you are very lucky if you can find a copy at any price these days.

What we do know is the bore diameter, you can't argue with that, if we leave the description at that, which I will.

I've given the cannon some more thought and I now think instead of a swivel, it is an insurance gun meant to be mounted on a simple wooden ship's carriage.    Most of the insurance guns I've seen were relatively small-bore iron cannons, and unmarked or sparsely marked.  This piece would be just right for a late 18th. C. British-made (including Scotland) insurance gun.

These things got around, everywhere the ships that carried them went, and it is possible it got to Spanish America and was used as the museum's history says it was.  The only thing I'd take issue with is where it was actually cast.  I think it is unlikely this piece was cast in Spain or in a Spanish colony.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 03:00:05 PM »
Mike Hardwick -

WELCOME to the board!

What do you like to shoot?

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2009, 12:26:45 AM »
This is more my wife's territory than mine, so I have asked her opinion. She pretty well agrees with Cannonmn- she also thinks it more likely to be British- in addition to the comments you made, she points out the raised ventblock as being more common on British pieces at this time, and the mouldings. Her only other comments were that it looks like it was cast in a two piece mould, which suggests a smaller founder than a proper gunfounder and that at this period Britain was exporting cannons abroad, including to Spain and Portugal at this period, so that the gun could have been quite legitimately acquired.

Bob Smith

Offline cannonmn

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Re: How do we tie down the national origin of this cannon?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 03:26:11 PM »
Thanks for the reply, always good to know what the professionals think.