Beretta Tomcat and Bobcat semi-autos?

[His lordship.]

The small Beretta pistols seem like a good idea as they could fit in a pocket, Beretta calls them the Bobcat in .25 ACP and the larger Tomcat in .32 ACP.  My buddy had the .22 rimfire short (Minx) version back around 1981 and he shot it alot, we noticed that it was not holding up all that well with around 1,000 rounds fired through it, and then it started going full-auto.  I figured that with the aluminum frame and the idea that it would be carried more than shot, it seemed right at the time. :?  

A person should be able to practice shooting and 1,000 rounds is not alot for a gun of that price range ($200.00 Bobcat, and $300.00 Tomcat).  I had read that a gun writer stated that they were only intended to last around 1,000 rounds, so I E-mailed Beretta a few days ago and have not heard anything from them on this.  Are these pistols really only intended to last around 1,000 rounds?  Anybody try the newer Tomcat?

Thanks.

[Dali Llama]

Are these pistols really only intended to last around 1,000 rounds?  

Dali Llama say he doubt any Beretta product intended to be disposed of after mere 1000 round. :?

[Bikenut]

I had a Beretta Bobcat in .22LR.................. accuracy was dismal, even at 7 yards. Probably could have hit closer to POA if I'd thrown the gun at the target. Traded that thing off quick.

Still have a Beretta Tomcat in .32.......... and I don't have a clue why it is still hanging around as it's accuracy equals the dismal performance of it's little brother... the Bobcat. It too will be traded soon.

[Mikey]

Chris D:  Only a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about would state that a Beretta won't hold up after a 1000 rounds or that the factory never intended them to be shot that much.  As the Dali Lama says - 'Dali Llama say he doubt any Beretta product intended to be disposed of after mere 1000 round', and I could not agree with him more.

I have a 21A in 22lr, a 950 in 25 auto, a Model 70 in 380 and friends have, between them, 4 of the 21As in 22lr.  Mine saw 350 rounds as a break-in and about 100 round per session after that.  It goes to the range with at least two full boxes and a shopping bag fulla empty soda cans.  The only time it misses a beat is when I use dirty ammo and the chamber gets dirty to the point where she slows down a bit.  A quick chamber cleaning with the factory issue cleaning brush and she is good for lots more.

The earlier Minx pistols chambered for the 22 short could be a bit sensitive.  I had a friend who had one and his just took a lickin' and kept on tickin'.  I think he still shoots it.

I have heard from 3 fellers with the Tomcats, the 32 acps, that they hit low and that they couldn't group well as a result.  These things all have very basic sights and are not target guns but a couple of my friends and I will spend a couple  of boxes of ammo skipping cans at the range, and if my lawyer's wife can skip cans with her 21A at 30', that's ok accuracy for a pocket rocket.  Mine groups pretty well for a tinly little gun.  

With a 21A in 22lr, I usually practice with standard velocity rounds and carry the Remington Golden Bullet solid nose hi-speeds.  Thsoe are the first to get used at teh range during a session, then use up the standard speed rounds, one more load of high speeds through each magazine, clean and oil and back into my pocket with fresh loads of the high speeds for carry.  

As Dali Lama said, I doubt if Beretta would make a pistol that you would ahve to dispose of after 1K rounds.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Dali Llama]

I had a Beretta Bobcat in .22LR.................. accuracy was dismal, even at 7 yards. Probably could have hit closer to POA if I'd thrown the gun at the target.

Dali Llama say, however, he doubt if thrown weapon would result in infliction of substantial wound through which vast quantities of life-sustaining bodily fluids (e.g., blood :eek: ) would readily depart target. :lol:

[Will]

I had a 21A in .22 one time, and it shot just okay. It was really finicky, and I had to keep it spotless for it to work right. It wasn't very accurate, either. I'm a big Beretta fan though, and I've never seen a Beretta that I thought would fall apart after 1000 rounds. My 21A was well used when I bought it, and I know I put 1000 rounds through it before I sold it, and I couldn't tell a difference in its performance. The pocket pistol I now carry is a Bauer .25, and that little gun is a gem. I bought mine brand new, it had been sitting on a dealer's shelf for a long time, and it is very accurate and much more reliable than any .22 pocket auto I've ever seen.

[Dali Llama]

The pocket pistol I now carry is a Bauer .25, and that little gun is a gem. I bought mine brand new, it had been sitting on a dealer's shelf for a long time, and it is very accurate and much more reliable than any .22 pocket auto I've ever seen.

Dali Llama say Bauer be clone of Baby Browning, and very good weapon for its type. :-)

[His lordship.]

I bought a new Beretta 21 on Saturday and took it to the range today.  The owner's manual said to use standard velocity ammo, as I suspect that the high velocity ammo is too hot and Beretta stated that the hot stuff would shorten the life of the gun.  I managed to get the gun to function most of the time using the expensive Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, at around $6.00 a box, it should work.  

I had some cheap CCI stuff and some German ammo to get the initial breakin started.  Man, what a jammo matic!!! :x Even with the Federal Gold it was not 100% percent reliable.  The gun was oiled before I took it to the range, so that was not the problem.  This gun had all the classics of jamming, stove pipes, failure to feed, double feed, failure to clear the clip.  The gun was cleaned several times during the 150 round test.  It also had the slide try to jump up and out when the barrel was raised to start the initial round on one occasion, I tried chambering it with just the slide pulled back, tip up the barrel, etc.  That gun was major unreliable, it scared me so bad that I traded it today for a Springfield XD in 9MM.

I had a Lorcin .22 pocket pistol back in the mid-1990's that would only work with Remington high velocity, and then it would jamb after the 3rd clip without a cleaning.  As far as I am concerned these .22 cal. pocket pistols are only good to shoot at tin cans, and you would be a heck of alot better off with a Ruger Mk. 2 or a Browning Buckmark pistol to ventilate beer cans instead, at least they work reliably.  

I think the Beretta Model 21 might work if it was in the reliable .25 cal. ACP (my Raven .25 cal never jambed in 600 rounds), or use only .22 cal high velocity copper coated ammo, but that would shorten the gun's life span.  No way will I ever buy another .22 cal. pocket pistol!!! :shock:

[Mikey]

will chill anyone's thoughts on pocket rockets.  None of the 21As I personally know have jammed or malfunctioned.

My personal one went for 350 rounds of mixed (hi spd, lo spd, solid, hp) 22lr without a problem until the dirty Hansen ammo I was using finally crudded up the chamber to the point where the slide started slowing down.  A quick brushing of the chamber with the issue cleaning brush cured that for the remaining 150 rounds.

All my friends who own one, or more, break theirs in on the higher speed ammo to make certain the pistols function, then go to a steady diet of standard velocity stuff.  

I am danged sorry to hear about your bad experiences, but I intentionally never started breaking in one of those pocket rockets with target or std velocity ammo.  Of the 5 I am familiar with, including one nickle plate, one gold engraved, two matt blued and my deep blue, none have screwed up and the owners feel comfortable with them in their pockets.  Mikey.

[Will]

I think if you're going to arm yourself with a pocket pistol of minimum size, you're much better off with a .25 than a .22. Now, lots of people say look at the ballistics of a .22 compared to a .25, and in print, they look better. But if you read the fine print, those .22 ballistics come from 4-inch or 6-inch handgun barrels and the .25's come from 2-inch barrels. That makes a big difference. If you compare the .22 ballistics from a 2-inch barrel to a .25, the ballistics are similiar. On top of this, the .25 is designed to feed reliably in those small automatics, while the .22 is not. Most .25's are much more reliable and the ammunition has a longer shelf-life than the .22. Yes, the .25's are more expensive, and yes I'd definately rather have a bigger gun, but given my choice between the two, I'll take my .25.

[Dali Llama]

I think if you're going to arm yourself with a pocket pistol of minimum size, you're much better off with a .25 than a .22.

Dali Llama say that major difference in reliability and function be attributable to usage of centerfire rather than rimfire amunition.

[hellbilly75]

I've had a 21a for about 4 years and I've fed it a steady diet of stingers,well over 1000 rounds, and I can't see any signs of wear on it at all.  As for accuracy, It is the best pocket pistol I've ever had.  It will bounce cans at 20 yards easily.  I'm really happy with mine.

[RollTide]

If you are looking for a good reliable pocket pistol, get yourself a NAA 32 Guardian.  The high velocity ammo maker RBCD put more than 20,000 rounds through one as a test pistol for their ammo which is at the extreme edge of acceptable pressure for the cartridge.  As a matter of fact there were several hundred intentional overloads that were fired through that gun.  The owner of the company was so impressed that he sent a letter to NAA and promptly bought himself, his wife, and his grown children NAA Guardians.  Mine is not much bigger than my Bauer (much smaller than the Baretta), fires a much more powerful round than the Bauer, fires 2" groups on point of aim at 20 to 30 feet with Win Silvertips, and never has FTF with quality ammo.  Taking nothing away from the Baretta, but the NAA 32 Guardian is probably the most accurate, smallest, most reliable, and most durable 32 ever made (Except possibly the Seecamp on which it is based, which may be equal to the NAA.)

Roll Tide

[Mikey]

Rolltide:  I could go with that 32 NAA, easily.  Nice little bottleneck pushing a 60 gn bullet at about 1200'/sec - makes for real nice pocket power.  I am a fan of the bottleneck cartridges for pistols - all the way from the 30 Luger, 7.62x25 Tokarev to my own 40 Michaels and now to the 32 NAA.  

I would like to see some aftermarket barrels for that 32 NAA cartridge to convert from 380.  That would really add spice to your life.  Now, if we could just find 380s with some decent sights we could prolly plink small game with that load.  Just a thought.  Mikey.

[RollTide]

I wonder how the 32NAA compares to the 32 H&R MAG.  I use the 32 ACP myself, but I share your enthusiasm for the 32 NAA concept.  I have wondered about that as an option.  I would like it if someone else starts making guns and ammo, or at least conversion barrels as you say.

Roll Tide