Author Topic: Need help with a few Spanish words in important cannon document  (Read 466 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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I put this text thru Google translate, Spanish to English, and it did a pretty good job, but as you can see, there are a number of words that came out with stupid, non-artillery meanings.  Maybe one of you knows enough Spanish to help figure out what was meant by words that GT turned into "mason" or "pants" or "panties" etc.  Please see if you can make the "translated" para. in English make more sense.  I'm thinking "mason" might be "stone" since the old falconetes were known to fire stone balls.

The webpage where this appears is linked at bottom.  I'm anxious to find a copy of "Rovira 1787" as it seems that's the only source for good info on some of these smaller Spanish swivels and howitzers.  The site gave me a brand new word, "Obuseros."  I made a video showing us shooting an original 3-pounder "Obuseros" which some say is the "Model 1781."

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Ante todo, debemos aclarar que no nos referimos aquí a los antiguos morteros capaces de arrojar piedras, al que los franceses llamaban "pierrier", sino a los "perrier" o cañones de borda, giratorios, al que los ingleses denominaban "swivel-gun ".
La característica principal de estas piezas era su poco peso, en relación al del proyectil que podían disparar. Esa liviandad se conseguía gracias al reducido espesor de los metales y permitía su montaje en horquillas sobre la borda o falca de buques y embarcaciones menores. La relativa debilidad resultante del poco espesor de sus paredes y montaje, se compensaba con una carga impulsivo igual a sólo un noveno del peso de la bala, en vez de un tercio o un medio como usaban los verdaderos cañones montados en cureñas. El calibre de los pedreros varíaba generalmente entre una y media libra y se cargaban por la boca. Sin embargo, los pedreros españoles eran de a dos y tres libras. En 1787, Rovira daba los planos de dichos pedreros, que eran de retrocarga y simultáneamente proponía su reemplazo por los obuses largos que había inventado en 1783.

Estos obuses, cuyo calibre se expresaba en libras francesas y no en pulgadas, tuvieron inicialmente un largo de 7,5 calibres (como el de las carronadas largas), pero en 1787 dicho largo se aumentó a 9 calibres. (Ver Lám. XXXVII). Si comparamos los planos de un antiguo.falconete, que reproducimos del ESPASA, con los planos del pedrero de a tres libras publicados por Rovira, resulta difícil establecer una diferencia entre ellos. También es significativa la descripción del pedrero de bragan, o braga, que hace Almirante- "El pedrero de braga era pequeño de bronce a hierro, de pie y medio de longitud (42 e.) y una pulgada y media (34 mm) de calibre, que se carga por la culata, en donde tiene una abertura de cuatro diámetros de la boca, por la que entra un másculo llamado recámara, el que se asegura á rosca y con una ciña de hierro que entra por el asa del mismo. Se transporta sobre una horquilla de hierro, cuyas puntas superiores terminan en unos anillos, en los que entran y giran los muñones del pedrero á fin de darle la dirección que se quiera. Solía usarse en las murallas de las plazas y en los buques de guerra, pero particularmente en los botes y faluchos, a cuyo efecto la espiga de la horquilla iba clavada en la borda.

Como vemos, pedreros y falconetes se montaban sobre horquillas, se cargaban por la culata, y tenían un largo semejante. 12 calibres el primero y 14 el segundo. La diferencia notable entre ambos es el calibre de media libra para el pedrero y tres libras para el falconete. De acuerdo a esto, podríamos decir que un falconete no era otra cosa que un pedrero grande, de a dos o tres libras, con sistema de retrocarga. Según Peter Kemp, los "falcons" eran de a dos o tres pounds", y los "falconets" de a una o dos "pounds". Un buen ejemplo de cuanto hemos dicho hasta aquí, se ría el armamento de la "División de Manila", alistada en 1818 para combatir a Bouchard. Estos tres buques, el navío Magallanes, la fragata Fidelidad, y la goleta Mosca, contaban con falconetes de a dos libras y la Mosca, también con tres pedreros de a media libra. Estos pedreros y falconetes no se computaban para determinar el porte de dichas naves.




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We must clarify that we do not refer here to the old mortar capable of throwing stones at the French call "Pierrier" but to "Perrier" or outboard cannons, swivel, to which the English called "swivel-gun .
The main feature of these pieces was their low weight in relation to the projectile that could shoot. This lightness was achieved thanks to the small thickness of the metal and allowed his mount brackets on the side or Falca of ships and smaller vessels. The relative weakness resulting from their thin walls and assembly, was compensated by an impulsive load equal to only one ninth of the weight of the bullet, instead of one third or half as they used real guns mounted on the heal. The caliber of the masons generally varies between one and a half pounds and is carried through the mouth. However, the masons were two Spaniards and three pounds. In 1787, the Rovira gave these masons, who were loading simultaneously and suggested its replacement by shells that had been invented long in 1783.

These shells, whose size is expressed in pounds not inches and French, took over an initial 7.5 calibers (such as the carrion long), but in 1787 this was increased to over 9 calibers. (See Lám. XXXVII). If we compare the plans of a antiguo.falconete, which reproduces the ESPASA with the mason of the three books published by Rovira, it is difficult to differentiate between them. Also significant is the description of the mason in panties or pants, making-Admiral "The mason of pants was small bronze to iron, foot and half long (e. 42) and half an inch (34 mm) caliber, which is charged by the butt, where it has an aperture of four diameters of the mouth, which comes mascula called a bedroom, which is secured with a screw and an iron that enters abide by the handle of it. transported on a band of iron whose tip ends in a higher rings, which revolve in and the stump of the mason to give the direction you want. I used to use on the walls of the squares and warships but particularly in the boats and Falucho, for which the spike of the fork was stuck in the side.

As we see, and masons falconet are mounted on brackets, were charged by the butt, and had a long kind. 12 caliber and 14 on the first second. The difference between the two is the size of half a pound to three pounds and mason for falconet. Accordingly, one could say that falconet was no more than a mason large, two or three pounds, with breech-loading system. According to Peter Kemp, the "Falcons" were two or three pounds, "and" falconets "of one or two pounds." A good example of what we have said so far, the weapons would be the "Division Manila, enlisted in 1818 to fight Bouchard. These three ships, the ship Magellan, Fidelity frigate and the schooner Mosca, had falconet than two pounds and the Fly, also with three masons of a half pound. These masons falconet and do not count in determining the size of these ships.

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http://www.histarmar.com.ar/InfHistorica/ArtilleriadeMarina/10-PedrerosyFalconetes.htm

 

Offline Victor3

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Re: Need help with a few Spanish words in important cannon document
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 01:28:14 AM »
"Their own weapons of defense recoiled upon them; for when they fired their pedrero (a swivel-gun) to repel a ferocious attack of the Indians, it burst and wounded several of the garrison.

http://www.californiagenealogy.org/labaja/la_baja_mission.htm

 The translator made it "mason" because a pedrero is also a mason or stone cutter.

 As far as I can tell, "El pedrero de braga" should translate "breech (loading???) swivel gun." Not positive though.

 On a side note, I've also heard the word pedrero used by some Central Americans to describe an agitator; someone who throws verbal 'stones'.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Need help with a few Spanish words in important cannon document
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 02:48:58 AM »
Thanks Victor.  Anyone want to tackle "pants" or "panties?"  Something just hit me on that, maybe something to do with "breech" since an older word for "pants" is "breeches?"?????????????

Offline Victor3

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Re: Need help with a few Spanish words in important cannon document
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 02:45:21 AM »
Thanks Victor.  Anyone want to tackle "pants" or "panties?"  Something just hit me on that, maybe something to do with "breech" since an older word for "pants" is "breeches?"?????????????

 I think that's a safe bet. The root word "braga" is associated with anything from pants to a horse's hind quarters, as well as a few other things having to do with the 'back end' of things.

 The translation is (as these automatic ones always are) jumbled up a bit in many places, so a lot of the original meaning is lost. As an example, the first sentence reads:

"We must clarify that we do not refer here to the old mortar capable of throwing stones at the French call "Pierrier" but to "Perrier" or outboard cannons, swivel, to which the English called "swivel-gun."

 Translated by a human it might read more like this:

 Before we begin, let us clarify that we are not speaking here of the ancient stone-throwing mortars - those that the French called "Pierrier" - but rather to "Perrier", or rail-mounted, rotating cannons that the English would have classified as "Swivel guns."
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes