Author Topic: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett  (Read 1372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mb4859

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • First Blood
difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« on: August 29, 2009, 08:58:56 AM »
Is there a difference between the 2 calibers?
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
- Ronald Reagan

Offline mauser98us

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1565
  • Gender: Male
  • 10 mm junkie and Whelan wacko
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 10:41:20 AM »
357 herrett is based on a shortened and expanded 30-30 case versus the standard revolver round

Offline Hopalong7

  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1673
  • Gender: Male
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 10:45:53 AM »
     The Herrett case is formed by necking up and shortening a 30-30Win case.  It has considerably more powder capacity than the 357Mag or Max.  All shoot the same diameter bullet, however it's been my experience that the Herrett like the Max performs better with the heavier end(180gr and up) of the 357 bullets.  Developed about 1969 by Bob Milek and Steve Herrett for big game pistol hunting at the time was about the most powerful round for such game.

Offline mb4859

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • First Blood
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 10:50:57 AM »
Can you buy these brass or do you have to fire form them yourself?  This is probably not something a newbe to reloading should start with????
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
- Ronald Reagan

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 11:43:32 AM »
Midway carries the brass & Buffalo Arms sells loaded ammo.  It's a great cartridge for the 10" barreled guns.  Steve Herrett was a pioneer in the handgun hunting hobby and a great man.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mb4859

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • First Blood
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 05:01:03 PM »
What would be the negatives of having a 14" 22lr compared to 10"
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
- Ronald Reagan

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2009, 02:04:19 AM »
The extra weight and cumbersomness without much velocity gain.  For me the 14" may as well be a rifle.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Hopalong7

  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1673
  • Gender: Male
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2009, 04:58:11 AM »
    At the time, Contender barrels were a max of 10" and performance of the 30-30Win left something to be desired so Milek and Herrett came up with the .30 Herrett design using 110gr bullets to achieve the desired velocity.  Afterward they wanted still better performance and particularly more energy with a heavier bullet to be more applicable on bigger game while still using the 10" barrel.  So they came up with the .357Herrett.  I would agree that neither round is the easiest to form and reload and might not be the best place for a newby to start reloading, but they really aren't all that difficult either.  Head spacing is fairly critical for success with both rounds, but then it is to some degree with any bottle neck case in the Contender.  Had the standard length barrel been 14" instead of 10" at the time, I doubt we'd have ever heard of .30 and .357 Herretts.  When the Super 14 barrel was introduced I thought it was the ugliest, most cumbersome looking monstrosity I'd ever seen.  Now I probably have more 14" barrels than 10" and even hunt pretty regularly with 16" barrels and even one 18"er.
GOOD SHOOTIN', Walt  :D

Offline mb4859

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • First Blood
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2009, 08:26:08 AM »
Thanks Walt and the rest of ya'll that chimed in.  I'm hoping my new G2 will arrive the end of this week.  The only barrel I'll have will be a 14" 45/410.  I know from reading that the 45lc isn't very accurate from this barrel, but I'm interested in shooting it to see what it feels like.  I've never shot a large caliber pistol before so I'm wondering how the 45lc kicks compared to say the 30-30 the 357 max or maybe the 375. thanks again
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
- Ronald Reagan

Offline Dezynco

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2009, 04:52:11 PM »
Oh I don't know, the 45 LC shoots OK from the 45/410 barrel.  About as well as most revolvers, capable of hitting deer-sized targets out to 50 yards just fine.  Just remember to take out the choke!

The 357 Herret is a pretty bad dude, indeed!  It's approx equal to the 35 Remington, only with a 10" barrel.  The cartridge lost a lot of interest when the longer barrels came out, the 357 Herrett became redundant.  I have a 10 incher that's very accurate.  Forming brass is not for folks that are not patient.  I've always said that "Wildcatin'" is a piddler's hobby.  If you don't like to piddle, don't buy a wildcat caliber.

Offline mb4859

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • First Blood
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 12:30:16 AM »
Dezynco, I've been a piddler all my life.  I've shot tourniment archery and long bows for years.  I would build my own arrows, sights, quivers and such.  I'm sure if I'm going to shoot my new G2 much I will have to learn to reload.  Im 50 years old, sold my boat and looking for a new hobby.  I design and build equipment for a large factory so I'm used to working with tight tollerences.   I just don't know much about reloading.  I bought a Dillon 550 a few years ago and started reloading 9mm to shoot IDPA.  What is the best book to get for beginner reloading?
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
- Ronald Reagan

Offline Dezynco

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 01:50:42 AM »
I recommend the Lee reloading book, as well as the one from Lyman.  The Lee manual has a lot of good reading and good practical information.  The Lyman book has a good general selection of jacketed and cast lead bullet loads, and has a bonus set of tables in the back that are just for the Contender and Encore pistols.

If you don't mind measuring, setting up the case trimmer and dies, then you might not mind forming your own cases for a wildcat like the 357 Herret.  You mostly have to be cautious when your first setting up to make the first one or two cases, after that not to bad.  The 357 Herrett and many others like the 7mm TCU headspace off the shoulder, not the rim.  You have to be careful not to push the shoulder back too far when you're first forming the case, or the accuracy will be horrible.

I don't mind fiddling with a wildcat cartridge, the results can be very rewarding!  The 7mm TCU (for example), is a neat little cartridge formed by expanding the neck of a .223 case up to 7mm.  Very accurate if it's done right, but a little finicky to load because it's very easy to crush the brass if the bullet doesn't just slide right in.  I also have a 270 REN that's made by stretching a 22 Hornet case up to .270, then trimming about 1/8" off of it.  Most of the time, I get about 3-4 out of every 5 cases to turn out great.  Pretty often, the parent case will split open and must be thrown away.  Like I said, it's a piddler's hobby.

I wouldn't recommend attempting a wildcat until you've gotten pretty familiar with the reloading process for some other standard calibers like the 30-30, 308, 44 Mag, etc. etc.  That way you'll be very familiar with setting up dies and making fine adjustments before attempting to load for a wildcat (some are easier to load, some require a lot of care).

If you're into traditional archery, then you'll love to reload.  :)

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 12:55:19 PM »
Quote
...I've always said that "Wildcatin'" is a piddler's hobby.  If you don't like to piddle, don't buy a wildcat caliber.

What is 'piddling' about a cartridge you can buy formed brass for?  Nothing.  There is no  difference than any other cartridge as far as reloading goes: plenty of data available and components aren't any more of an issue that with any other cartridge today. 

As stated there is no difference in the importance of headspace with the Herretts than with any other bottlenecked cartridge.  Too little and poor accuracy and misfires are expected.  Too much and you get short case life - the same as with 7-30, .30-30, 7TCU, etc.  If you buy formed cases from Midway then loading is "standard" not wildcat.

I've shot the Herretts since the mid-70s and have a lifetime supply of formed cases - so loading these wildcat entails no 'piddling' at all for me......



.

Offline Dezynco

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
Re: difference between 357 and 357 Herrett
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 01:14:21 PM »
I see that Midway does actually have some brass in stock.  The last time I looked, it was "out of stock - no backorders".  That does make it easy.  However, I've got about 300 that were formed from 30-30 brass.  It is a good learning experience, and a lot of fun to make your own.

Don't be "flaming" me Lone Star, this is supposed to be a forum for folks to ask questions and others to offer suggestions.  The guy is looking for experienced knowledge that works....

....besides, what's wrong with "piddling"?