"recycling" ammo

[teamnelson]

All the "one gun" threads on all the survival forums got me thinking. I'm a worst case scenario guy, which for me means end of the industrial age - no new ammo, no new guns, no parts, no powder, no primers, etc. Each and every round spent may never be replaced. It may be decades before civilization is organized enough to return to industrial levels. So flinters are starting to look interesting; casting balls is easy. The trick for the long term would be powder, so I have a question.

Say I came across a cache of 5.56, next to a decaying body with a bent and rusty AR still firm in its bony digits. Theoretically, could I pull the bullets out of the case and use the powder in my smooth bore flinter? How about the primers; could I safely remove the primers and reuse them in a crude conversion on a cap and ball, like the 209 converters advertised here? Remember, I'm talking we're down to no other options at this point, and we're not shooting at Camp Perry.

[lakota]

Maybe someone else knows better but from everything I have read that smokeless powder would likely blow your flinter up.

That being said for the situation you are describing I feel a smoothbore flinter would be a good choice also.

You could make your own blackpowder and as long as you can find a rock that sparks against your frizzen you are in business. You could use gravel for projectiles if you were real desperate.

[Yankee1]

Hello Team Nelson
     Smokeless powder should not be used in black powder arms.
Black Powder is 75% Potassium nitrate
Charcoal 15%
Sulpher  10%
This formula can vary some, but not much.
Removing primers can crack the primer cake inside or they could go off.  Some people have used powdered strike anywhere matches to fill the primer cups full after knocking out the dent caused by the firing pin and carefully placing the anvil on top of the mixture and reseating the primer thusly filled.
Potassium Nitrate can me made by evaporating urine.
When making black powder no steel utensils can be used. wood is often used. The black powder in cake form is kept damp until after grating it on a copper screen to the correct granule size.
Ash wood makes good charcoal.  The Afghans used used photoghrapic film acquired from Japan to use in the place of cordite for their rifles. I do not know what the pressure curve is for film is but it worked.
                                    Yankee1

[teamnelson]

on the premise that the only stupid question is the one not asked ...

why shouldn't smokeless powder be used in black powder arms? Yes, I know its written in the manuals for my frontstuffers. Why? Is it the pressure? If so, less powder? more wad? heavier action? Combination? Or is it just simply impossible to ignite smokeless with a flint or cap?

I like the idea of making your own powder, and will add that to the list of pre-industrial skills I need to learn. Before someone says, why bother? get a bow! There's a reason we moved from bows to guns - and the longer you can keep a gun functioning, the greater the advantage over all the folks that will rediscover how to make primitive bows.

[Graybeard]

Cuz it will blow yer gun and perhaps you up. Pressure is FAR greater with smokeless and if used in a muzzle loader there is no telling what pressure levels might reach. If ya like having all your fingers and eyes and other miscelleaneous body parts just accept that it won't work and don't try it.

[don heath]

Hmmm not true. Have done pressure tests using pistol powder in an old lyman 50 percussion. Moderate charges of fairly fast pistol powders are fine - the problem is flame errosion of the vent - As you move to slower powders the pressure curve is different but pressures not necessarily higher.

NB- Shotguns operate at lower pressures than most 50 cal ML with 100grn BP charge and Maxi ball.

I have seen a traditional style ML built to withstand very high pressures. Client bought it to shoot an elephant with. 76grns of H322 and 10grns black (just for smoke for the camera)  behind a 500 grn .458 bullet. Bullet seated firmly on top of powder. Ignited by usual no 11 cap.  Looked snap to a hawken and looked great on film. Started out with a regular, modern steal barrel from Border. Being from mud island he had submited it to the proof house where they had fired the required 50% over load....

[teamnelson]

So if you happened to survive long enough to be in the position I described, you could at least harvest smokeless powder, and possibly bullets, for reloading for whatever your carry gun was. The question then would be primers. If you can't safely pull them you have to make them.

And to safely use whatever smokeless you find would require some thinking on caliber choice. Example, could you safely use the powder from say a battlepack of 7.62x39 to reload for that 12 ga single some folks favor?

Granted, this is a purely academic discussion. This is starting to sound like more trouble than it's worth.

[don heath]

Team Nelson...no you have to match the powder to the round. If you had a ML made for smokless pressures in say .45 cal, you could get away with moderate charges of any powder from .223 or 7.62x39 but...you had better have a loading book and second guess the powder very carefully on anything else. if you pulled powder from a 30-06 say , you would either get a weak 'squib load' or a 'kaboom'.  Sticking rifle powder in a shot shell will either blow up the shot gun or the peletes will bounce off doves...finding the correct 'in betwen point would take several shotguns an a lot of powder!

Since BP is easy enough to make I would stick to a flint lock for hunting (actually I wouldn't - I would stick to a snare or a bow) and reserve my rifle for dangerous game and people. I thought about your question and ...Properly stored smokless powder has a realistic shelf life of a couple of hundred years. You need less smokless to get the job done than you do BP... so it would make sense to bulk store smokless powder. eg. to get a nice killing load in a .44 mag, I need a cast lead bullet, a primer and only 12grns MP200 (about the same as Unique). From the counting machine on my Dillon press I know I get 26,000 rounds out of a case of MP...(I used to shoot alot of shilouettes)...If you are thinking of a long term gun for after everything stops a .44 mag, .357 or even .45-70 make alot of sence. You can use most powders reasonably well, especially if you are using them in a rifle. and you can easily use cast bullets...and Black powder. The key is having the primers. You can re-fill primers like the tibesmen in Africa do using matches but they are very unreliable...If I was going to stockpile anything it would be priomers

[Almtnman]

I've been reloading my own ammo for more years than I can remember. The first lesson in loading any kind of ammo or a blackpowder gun is, there's NO room for error or mistakes. Smokeless powder is subject to discharging by static electricity. Ramming a front-stuffer with smokeless powder on a static electric day and you might lose an arm or hand, maybe even part of your face. You need to get not one, but several reloading manuals and read them. The ones I have mentions never reload anything on one of those days or when you are not feeling up to snuff. You could probably make your own black powder easier and safer than using smokeless powder in a gun designed strictly for blackpowder use.

You can make your own primers for a smokelsss powder gun as it has been done before. I won't get into that here though as it could be subject to legalities that I don't want to be involved with. I think your best choice in thinking of long terms of a survival mode would be to stock up on ammo. Try to stick with regular calibers that have been around a long time, like 30-06, 308, 30-30, 45acp, 9mm etc., the ones that you can buy almost anywhere. 

[WD45]

Part of the prob with Don's senario is not knowing what powder is in that smokless round you are pulling apart and what are its characteristics. Was it a factory load or was it reloaded with another powder ? The other prob is some powders change how they act depending on how much airspace is in the case or if the load must be compressed. SO ... how will you know where to seat the ball in your ML ??  With black powder the ball is always seated on the powder charge. With smokless, not so. Also don't forget that the lock on a ML is not the strongest component. Heavy pressures through a pan vent or nipple vent can not only wreck a lock but damage you to. The powder in that AR round may be fine with a 60 grain bullet and no comoression but what about a 250 grain or heavier projectile seated directly on top ?

[mannyrock]

  I'm sorry guys, but I consider this to be an inherently preposterous supposition.

  The concept of loading smokeless powder into a blackpowder rifle is pure suicide. 

Regards,

Mannyrock

[teamnelson]

Appreciate the replies. Shouldve been even more specific I guess ...

Imagine no one is manufacturing or shipping ammo to this hemisphere. In fact factories aren't working, power grid is down. Ammo on shelves has been taken, shot, or lost to water or fire. Your own cache is dwindling because you're trigger happy, who knows, and in your scrounging you come across my cache of ammo that doesn't fit your weapon. As far as you know, this may be the last cache of ammo you ever see. While you're cursing my name for collecting wildcats and argentinan milsurp ... is it worth trying to use some way? Or it just trade fodder?

Thanks for thinking outside the box on this!

[45-70.gov]

save the ammo you find to barter  with don't ruin it
save the ammo  till  you find a rifle for  it
may be  the ar  can be made to function even as a single shot
with a flinter  2 holes to releive preasure  ''probly safe''
safety glasses  still  around??
no need to salvage primer for flinter
if  it  blows  up  are  there any doctors  and  ambulances  running?
but  it is something  to  think about

reload  sone  38s  with imr3031  or varget  see  how that works
try it  while  you cane  call  for help  if it blows

put  up some black  powder  now

[SHOOTALL]

I read some but not all post , a trad. muzzle loadeR bbl is softer than a bbl for modern powder . Savage has a ML that shoots both powders and several people i know use modern powder in an encore .
 If you really want a good gun in the end maybe a copy of the old wild fowler gun might be a good one , a double with a flint lock on one side and a modern set up on the other bbl . You could have a seperate lock for caps and maybe a couple faux shells set up to use small and large primers and loaded like mini BP guns then inserted into the chamber . Add some little skitters and ya bout got it covered  . Of course you would need a pretty large possibles bag to keep all the stuff in but that's part of the fun right .
Oh yea use double triggers and if one side is down the other can keep on going .
A side lock would seem the best if not the only way to go .

Hey add a rifle bbl and have a survival driller !

[WD45]

I would use what I found for trading fodder.
Now a good in between that really was not brought up is BP cartridges that are tried and true and will work with BP or smokeless like the 38-55 and cast bullets. As long as you have primers and cases of course. It's hard to beat the simplicity of a good flinter as it does not take much to make it work. Maybe BP cartridge is the best of both worlds for versatility.

[jrnsuz]

Some interesting ideas, but straight up you CANNOT use modern smokeless propellants in a ml. Even the Savage 10ML is severely limited in the available powders; if you read the manual, not just any smokeless is usable.