Author Topic: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion  (Read 3299 times)

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Offline Siskiyou

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RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« on: December 06, 2009, 01:23:21 PM »
This topic might fit a couple of pages.  It is snowing right now so it is a good time to do some unloading and some reloading.  The subject might fit in the following subjects, Medium Bore, Military Surplus Rifles, and The Handload for Rifles and Handguns form fits.  A topic in the Handloading form got me going on this project.   http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,186955.msg1098951281.html#new

I expect it will take a few months to complete all the steps in this project with Christmas coming up, the primary pitfall is the areas I shoot are getting snow.  The roads may not open up for a few months.  I happen to like snow, because snow melt flushes the toilet in August.

A little about the rifle.  In the early 1960 period a Southern California outfit created the Jungle Carbine to replicate the British WWII Enfield Number 5, Mark1.

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/sp3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Carbine

My rifle was made up from Enfield #4 parts that do not have the true Enfield #5 modifications such as metal cut out of the receiver, the barrel, and the bolt handle.  The effort to lighten rifle for jungle warfare may have resulted in a wondering zero issue.   The only issue I have had with the rifle is the high point on impact designed into the issue battle sight.  I need a taller foresight to get the point of impact down. 


The best military surplus ammunition I have found is Canadian, and the brass is reloadable.  Looking for Canadian brass is what lead me down my current path.

I spent the summer of 1960 traveling in British Columbia and Alberta Canada.  In 1961 I spent some time living on a homestead in the Peace River Country of Alberta.  Most of the residences were farmers, and their hunting arms varied.  But a number of them were using different Enfield 303 British rifles to shoot deer, moose, and elk.  When I was setting at the dinner table of a Canadian farmer eating moose roast he told me about taking it with his 303 caliber rifle I listen closely.  After returning home for school I had the opportunity to buy one.  I went with a dealer to a wholesaler’s warehouse, and there was a vast collection of military rifles to be had.  I had been staring at the Jungle Carbine ads for months, and it was very easy to select one from the many on display.

This has not been a go to deer rifle for me, but when I got married my new bride shot it a lot.  Recoil from the rifle is wicked, but she practiced with it.  The rifle has a narrow hard rubber recoil pad that must have been designed to inflict pain.  My wife never used it because I loaned it to my mother who was having bear problems up at her fire lookout tower.  Ammunition at the time was military FMJ, Santa Fe softpoints loaded in military cases, and 180-grain Federal Softpoints.

When I bought the rifle, I had not heard about the bore diameter issues with some of the rifles.  I had looked down the bore and observed good rifling in a shiny bore.  I had no clue if it was .311 diameter, .312 diameter, or larger.  Twenty years after buying it I bought dies to reload for it and some 174-grain Hornady bullets.  The Hornady bullets are .312 in diameter, and it might be a clue regarding accuracy.  The groups were still high at 100-yards because of the design of the military sight but were tighter than with other ammunition I had used.  I settled on a near maximum load using IMR4320 powder. 

I bought a few boxes of Belmont 303 ammunition loaded with 150-grain Serria bullets.  The ammunition produced a light report, light recoil, and was inaccurate in my rifle.  There has been post or articles on other internet sites about the poor performance of the Belmont 303 ammunition.  If nothing else I consider it as cheap source of brass and bullets for this reloader.  Is the .311 diameter bullet versus the .312 diameter Hornady the issue? 

I do not think the .311 diameter bullets are the key to the accuracy problem.  I measured a number of British, and Canada service rounds and they are loaded with .311 diameter bullets.  I measured commercial loaded 180-grain Federal softpoints, they are .311 diameter.  I have a full 20-count box of Santa Fe brand 150-grain softpoints loaded in military cases with Berdan primers.  I have had this box of shells for almost as long as I have had the rifle.  The bullets have a cannelure and the same profile as the 150-grain Hornady bullets I have.  The bullets in the loaded rounds are .312 diameter.  I plan on shooting this ammunition up along with any other Berdan primer ammunition I have for it because I believe them to be corrosive primed.  That way I know the barrel will get the proper cleaning for corrosive ammunition.  Plus it will be fun.  The rifle is more fun to shoot now that I have added a slip-on recoil pad.

Belmont 303 ammunition.  Last night I started pulling the bullets from the partial box of Belmont ammunition.  Field testing will determined what I will do with the remaining boxes.
Some of my observations:

1.    I used a kinetic bullet puller.  I have used this tool for many years.  The effort to pull the bullet from the Belmont ammunition was the least effort ever required to pull bullets.  Does the lack of neck tension impact ignition and accuracy of this ammunition?
2.   The bullet:  I have a foam plug in the end of my bullet puller and they were not deform, and I plan on using them.  The bullets appear to be a Sierra Pro-hunter without a cannelura.   The bullets consistently weighed 150-grains.
3.   The powder:  Is very fine grain with a large amount of gray graphite type material with it.  I poured the powder from the case to a funnel into the pan for my scale.  The funnel became coated with the graphite.  The powder did not pass the smell test.  The powders I reload with normally have an alcohol-ether odor.  This unfamiliar powder did not have this odor.  The lack of an odor could indicate the powder has deteriorated, or a different manufacture process was used.  Most of the powder charges weight 36.0 grains.  Researching .303 British loads in a number of manuals would indicate that a 36.0 grain charge of the appropriate powder behind a 150-grain bullet is at the starting side of the scale.  One case had 38.0 grains of the unknown powder in it.  In most cases when reloading rifle cases I toss the charge into the pan for my powder scale and weight each charge.  I use a tickler to bring the charge to the planned amount.
4.   The case appeared to be fine.

Two Red Flags at this time are the lack of neck tension, and light powder charge. 

I disposed of the powder.

The plan is to recharge five cases with BL-(2) powder and reseat the Sierra bullet.  Before doing this I am going to run the case into the resizing die to resize the mouth of the case about 1/10 on an inch to increase neck tension on the bullet.  Hopefully test firing will give me a clue if the original accuracy problem was related to the light powder charges, and light (darn little, neck tension).  I will charge the remaining cases with BL-(2) powder and load them with 150-grain Hornady bullets, .312 diameter.

I need to re-examine the rifle to make sure it is okay.  I glass bedded it long ago, but after doing some research I am going to check and make sure the upper wood over the barrel has adequate clearance.
It has been suggested that I mount a scope of the rifle.  This is a nasty weather, close range rifle and mounting a scope of it would defeat my need.  I have scoped rifles.

Would I buy more of the Belmont ammunition at the same cost?  The answer is yes because the purchase was a cheap source of components, and as a reloader I believe I can get some use out of them. 

It is time to bundle up and head for the reloading bench.  Once I get the brass loaded I have another project around the bench.  I keep thinking I have a box of 180-grain Sierra .311 diameter bullets.


There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Avyctes

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 06:35:07 AM »
Siskiyou,

I'm not a reloader, but found your story and observations interesting nonetheless.

As to your quest to find out the reason for the inaccuracy of the Belmont loads, you noted two possibilities (could the primer be a 3rd possibility?).  I wondered if you had considered simply re-crimping the original rounds to fix the noted lack of neck tension, and test that load (using the original powder), to eliminate one of the possibilities?  I realize that not knowing what the powder is would preclude being able to reload using it.  But if this strange powder is correctly dosed in the brass, it may be losing pressure, as you said, by the loose bullet in the neck.

Cheers to your endeavor.  As I said, I don't reload, but i have a No4Mk1 Enfield that I need to get back on, so I always read Enfield posts with relish.  Mine is in original configuration, but shoots darn high, whilst using the lowest distance setting of 200 yards on the battle sight.  At 100 yards it's about 2' high.  I observed your statement of finding a higher front sight, and I may attempt that, or simply try soldering some metal to the top of mine to see if that affects it.

Cheers,

Chris.
"There exists a law, not written down anywhere, but in our hearts.. that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right."
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2009, 05:03:07 PM »
   
   

Avyctes:  The Sierra bullets used in the loads do not have a cannelura for crimping.  The bullets are designed to be held by tight neck tension.  While I have dumped the powder with the box of shells I am working with I could visit another one of the boxes I have, pull the bullet, dump the powder into the powder pan, set the sizing die to do about 1/10 of an inch of the neck, re-charged the case, and put the bullet in it.
If it does improve ignition then I need to fire them over my Chrony.  I feel the charge of 36.0 grains of unknown powder is a light load.  I believe that I can gain some velocity with a proper charge of BL-C (2) which I have an unopened 8-pound jug.   By accident and reviewing the data I have BL-C (2) appears to produce higher velocity in the .303 cases within recommended pressures levels than some other favorite powders.  Using my favorite IMR4320 with the Hornady 174 grain bullet my charge weight is 41.4 grains, which is just under the recommend maximum of 41.5 grains in the Hornady manual.

The PRIMER:  I am hoping the primer is not the issue.  If I determined the primer is the issue I will pull the bullets, dump the powder and make a trip to a remote location to pop a lot of primers.  Against published recommendations I have de-primed live primers.  The problem is that these are military cases with crimped in military primers.  They are designed to stay in the case.  The only safe action I see is to pop the primers, use my Lee de-priming die, and then the Lyman tool for removing military crimps so I can re-prime the case.

There are a lot of people more knowledgeable than I on the Enfield Mark4 and Mark5 foresight.  It is my understanding that with the No5 when zeroing at 100 yards the point of impact should be approximately 3.5 inches above the point of aim with the standard battle sight.  There is a set of foresights that increase in height approximately .015 which alters the 100 yard point of impact.  Because of my application I would like to have a foresight (English term) tall enough to give me a spot on point of impact at 100-yards when using the Battle Sight.  I still have the Ladder Sight for longer range targets.

It is my understanding the #4 and #5 share the same sights kits.  I am wondering if the foresight can be successful be built up with JB Weld or some other material?

Sighting information:
http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ti15.htm
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline handirandy

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 10:54:12 AM »
It's been a while but I think I remember soft soldering a piece of #10 solid copper wire lengthwise on top of the front sight and filing the sides flat.  The top could then be filed as well to adjust impact.  then black with a perm. marking pen. To bring back to original the solder and wire could be removed.
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Offline gandog56

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 12:09:22 PM »
I have a No.4 Mk.1, and reload for it using .311" 147 grain  FMJBT's. I get pretty good accuracy. I am using 39 grains of IMR 4895.

Offline Mikey

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 01:52:37 AM »
Sisk:  I've had both brands of re-manufactured 303 ammo that you named, but it has been a long number of years since I have purchased any re-man ammo for the 303.  I think this is because I felt the re-man stuff was really crummy - low reports, poor accuracy, low recoil, and no indication it was in the same class as quality hunting ammo or new(er/ish) mil-spec. 

I have found all my British 303s to shoot much more accurately with .312 bullets.  The 311s were not bad, but a 2-2.5" group at 100m is not good enough for me - when I replicated the powder charge with a .312 slug the groups closed to under 1" at the same distance and about 2-3" lower on the target. 

My powder preferences have always been 4895, N201 (this Norma isn't available any longer) or VhitaVuori Oy (N140).  With either powder the accuracy is within 1" at 100m and velocities are at the mil-spec (2540'/sec) level.

I have always noticed the 303s to shoot high at 100 yds with lower pressure (not mil-spec) loads but when loaded to mil-spec they shoot dead on. 

If the front sight height is still a problem for you then please understand that most military rifle sights were designed to be useful out beyond one range.  A 303 that hits 2-3" high at 100m is going to be dead on at 200 and there is no need to use the rear peep or battle sight until you take shots to 300 yds or so.  But, if you want to have your rifle hit dead on at 100m then you can do the JB weld thing or the #10 copper wire application, but you should have fun doing it.  HTH.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 07:50:56 AM »
Mikey:  Thanks for the information.  When I first reloaded for my .303 British I noticed an immediate improvement in group size using 4320 and the 174-grain Hornady, which is .312.  It appears that my rifle prefers .312 diameter bullets.  Do you have a preference between the 174-grain Hornady, and the 150-grain Hornady?  The little guy on my right shoulder tells me the 174-grain bullet is going to put more energy on the target after the jack rabbit 150-grain starts running out of steam.  And the 150-grain bullet is going to shoot flatter.  The turtle on the left should representing the 174-grain bullet knows me well and says that I will get good expansion and an exit wound out of the 174-grain.  Logic and experience with Hornady bullets is the 150-grain bullet will offer good expansion and will exit on behind the shoulder shoots.

I understand the POI of the military sights.  Fortunately I have some other long range options that are more suitable for my old eyes.  In fact the weather here today is the situation where I would use the Jungle Carbine for hunting.  It is current raining, and it has been raining for a few days.  We are getting close to four inches of rain.  Clouds are limiting visual range, and those old military sights are not bothered by the rain. 

A few minutes ago I looked out in the backyard and spotted this buck following a doe.  There are some other does out there along with a small horn fork.  I guess the fork would be a four point back East and the 4x4 buck would be a ten point after counting eye guards.  I love watching deer.  This would an ideal setup for the Jungle Carbine.  The 4x4 is about 26-yards.



The other day I stuck the laser sight in the barrel and checked the sights.  They are dead on, so until I get some range time with new loads I will not modify the front sight.  The high altitude location I use the Chrony has approximately 31-inches of snow on the ground this morning with more falling.  The lower elevation locations have too much shade to use the Chrony.

At this point it is a real wobblier, do I go with the 174-grain (.312) bullets or do I go with the 150-grain (.312) bullets?  I will give the .311, Sierra 150-grain bullets a fair test with what I consider to be hunting charge of BL-C (2). 

What bullet weight would you go with?  Do I buy additional 150-grain or 174-grain Hornady bullets?
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Mikey

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 02:54:24 AM »
Sisk:  I am definately a 174-180 gn .312 diameter guy.  The larger bullets shoot more accurately and more to point of aim with open sights, and actually cut my group size better'n half.  I also favor the heavier bullets in the 30 bore rifles - I feel the 150s destroy way too much meat, whether in 303, 308 or 30-06 caliber.  The 180s push on through at any range I have taken Whitetail, Blacktail or Mule Deer with.  I would not use a 150 on any game the size of Elk, Red Stag or Moose as the 180s out of the box work so much better. 

4320 is a good powder for the 303, so is 4895 but I really like the VV N140.  There is only 1 charge listed and it is for a 180 gn (European made) .312 diameter spire point and it is the load I prefer.  You should try it whether you can locate soem 180 -.312s or the 174 gn Hornady round nose. 

The picture you took shows me a beautiful 8-10 pointer - 4x4 in your terms - definately one I would invite to Christmas dinner and he would have been a ideal set-up for your Jungle Carbine.  Good luck and have fun.  Let us know how it turns out for you. 

Oh yeah, for practice, plinking or varmitting, any of the 123-125 gn slugs now made for the 7.62x39mm Soviet round are often found to shoot fairly well in the 303s.  HTH.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 03:32:54 PM »
As of breakfast this morning I am locked into developing 303 British loads with BL-C (2).  Member Gun Runner contacted me last week after reading my earlier post and said he had three pounds of it, if I wanted.  Gun Runner wife is a smart lady and she had me pigged.  After breakfast I had three pounds of BL-C (2) and some .303 British brass to work with.

Back in the 20th Century she worked for me as a law clerk.  My partner and I tried to unload all our paper work on her so we could be out doing our jobs.  In that day and age I used a lot of different topo sheets and planetary maps.  Not only did she assemble map books for us she could look at a map and understand it.  Part of it must have been the country girl because she can relate terrain to the lines on a map.   A small, small world made smaller by Graybeards Outdoors.

Three pounds of powder comes out to approximately 456 rounds, at a very low price per round.  I have held up on the project for a few days waiting for a break in the weather so I could tie in with Gun Runner.  My goal is to produce accurate and effective game loads at a reasonable price.  If I did not have the BL-C (2) in hand I would explorer another powder.  I will use the multi-charge method of loading with the powder given me by Gun Runner.  Once I finish that powder, I will again use the multi-charge method when opening my new lot of powder, the powder from Gun Runner is an older lot, but the seals on all three cans had not been broken.  I opened one can and examined the powder, it appears to be okay.  I had planned on loading in the morning, but surprise, my wife made an appointment for a flue shot in the a.m.  Guess I need to visit a gun shop our to get the most out of my trip.
 
Follow the link.  If you select rifle in load type, and .303 British you can see that BL-C (2) appears to be a good powder in the .303 British.  The fact that it appears to produce high velocity at a lower pressure does not mean it will produce accurate loads in my rifle.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I pulled out my old load book, and I have to admit that I did not keep good notes in 1981, the rifle, the bullet, powder, primer, and the word accurate.  Years later my notes are not as kind when I tested the Belmont ammunition.

They show that I was on paper but did not get great accuracy from the Federal .311, 180-grain bullet.

Mikey I am happy with Hornady .312 bullets are there other American 312 bullets?
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Mikey

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 03:27:57 AM »
Sisk:  I think the Hornady is the only American made .312 diameter bullet there is.  I see by the load data that the BL-C powder gives good velocity with the .311 bullet.  Those loads were probably tested in a pressure barrel of .311 diameter.  Your .312 loads should shoot the same.  Good luck with your flu shot.....

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 02:58:01 PM »

The nurse must have had a lot of practice, and those modern thin needles are not bad.  She had the needle in my arm before I could start kicking, and screaming. 

I went off the hill looking for Hornady .312 bullets, preferably 174-grain, but would have bought 150-grain Hornady but neither could be found.    I messed up a week ago, I had stopped at Huntingtons store in Oroville, California.  It was about closing time, so I just took a quick look around because it had been a long day.  They appeared to be well stocked.  Common bullets were out on display counters, I suspect the 311, and 312 bullets were on the wall shelves behind the handgun displays.

I did find a few boxes of .311 bullets, but I passed.  If I develop an accurate loaded with the pulled .311 bullets I will re-visit them. 

http://www.huntingtons.com/

I still have some 174-grain and 150-grain Hornady bullets on hand, plus the pulled 150-grain Sierra bullets so I have plenty to do with.  Hopefully I will be at the bench tomorrow.

I had not thought about the pressure barrel being .311. 
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Mikey

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 02:49:13 AM »
Sisk:  I believe you may be able to order those bullets directly from Hornady, or they will/can tell you who in your area can get them for you.  If one of your local dealers says they can but don't know when I believe Hornday will ship them right out. 

I forget exactly where I obtained my last bunch of bullets, both Hornady and Sierra, that I ordered for the 7.62x25mm Tokarev pistol - may have been Cabelas but those made by Hornady are definately in their catalog.  Take a look on their website, I think you can order directly......HTH.

Offline res45

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2009, 03:35:37 AM »
Siskiyou I have pretty much ran into the same problem as you but with a different rifle my Mosin M44 it's a beautiful rifle and capable of excellent accuracy but the rifle only had windage adjustments on the front sight and elevation adjustment in 100 meter increments,it was very frustrating at first using several different surplus ammo's and my targets ending up looking like buckshot practice targets.

Being I've been reloading two thirds of my life the first order of business was to slug the bore to find the best bullets size before I started handloading since Mosin bore dia. tend to run anywhere for .310 up to as high as .315 in some worn out rifles. Mine measure right at .312 so in a sense I pretty lucky on bullet choices.  My rifle seem to like the 150 gr. variants the best any of the .311 150 grs. work fine and both the Hornady .312's in 150 and 174 shoot excellent in new handloads.

Back to the Surplus ammo when I bought the rifle I purchased about 1000 rds. of Bulgarian brass case surplus in both light and heavy ball both bullets mic out to right at .310.5 bullet seating depth varies as well as neck tension and powder charges which are only off by about 1/2 grain but there hot loads to begin with.  So as an experiment one day I took about 20 rds. of the LB ammo and broke it down, weighed every other powder charge to get an average which turned out to be anywhere for 47.3 low up to 48.0 grs max.  Since I knew from how the load shot and primer evidence I dropped the powder charge down to 46.5 grs. I resize all the case necks to apply equal neck tension rd. to rd. and trimmed them to length,all were just a little long and uneven,then I recharged the cases and set all the bullets to the same depth and finished them off with a med. crimp with the Lee factory crimp die.

Not only did the reworked load have a lighter recoil,and no more cratered primers they now group under 2" with the factory sights,I also use the same combination and replace the surplus 147 gr. FMJ with one of the factory 150 gr. SP to use as hunting ammo and they shoot equally as well using all the surplus components the term for that is called MEXICAN MATCH in the shooting world. I did the same with the surplus HB ammo and used the Hornady 174 gr. .312 bullet all it requires is to set the rear sight leaf to the 200 meters setting to be dead on at 100 yds. which is fine for my application since 100 yds is about my max hunting range here in the thick woods of North Carolina.

As far as working up loads for scratch I use Prvi Partizan brass,Win LR primer and my powders of choice are IMR-4064 and Reloader #15.  When you gt to the point of reloading your once fired brass you might want to try working up a few test loads and only neck size the brass,it might improve accuracy and will definitely make your brass last longer.  I don't know if this will be of any interest to you or not but I will pass it along as my eyes get older I find it harder to use the factory sights on some of mu old war rifles this may or may not be an option for you.  You may end up having to remove the flip up rear sight to attach the mount,in my case I'm probably going to have to either go with a MOJO micro click replacement rear sigh or an S & K scout mount on my M44.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/cadtechnikno4/index.asp

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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2009, 11:42:50 AM »
I appreciate the information and it encouraged me to order the 174-grain Hornady bullets online yesterday morning.  I ordered two boxes.   I like to buy locally when possible but when they do not have the item in stock I order because it cost gas to run around looking for something that is not there.  After yesterday’s events I am pleased that I made the order.  I did not order directly from Hornady to avoid paying list their list price.

After reloading different charge increments of the disassembled Belmont brass and with BL-C(2) powder I conducted functioning test of the loaded ammunition in my rifle.  But going backwards when I test fired the Belmont ammunition on the range I just single loaded rounds and fired them.  Yesterday I fully loaded the magazine and operated the bolt.  First round on the right feed into the chamber, second round from the right side jammed with the bullet not feeding into the chamber, third round off the left side feed into the chamber, fourth round  off the right side jammed in the same manner as the second round.  The fifth round feed.

Yesterday I pulled some more bullets and dumped the original powder from the Belmont loads. 

I reloaded the magazine with five more rounds of the reassembled Belmont components which has the 150-grain Sierra soft point bullet.  The functioning failures continued in the same manner with the softpoint crushing when fed from the right side.
Next I tried ammunition loaded with 174-grain Hornady Round Nose bullets, all ten rounds functioned without a problem.  That test installed confidence in me regarding that bullet, and the investment I had made earlier in the morning.

The third loaded ammunition I tried was Canadian military FMJ.  The metal pointed ammunition fed without a problem.

The next load I tried was some 150-grain Hornady .312 diameter ammunition.  The Hornady 150-grain bullet has a different profile that the 150-grain Sierra .311 diameter bullet.  I ran two cycles of fire rounds each of my reloads with the Hornady 150-grain bullet.  The rounds did not jam but they did not feed as smooth from the right side as the 174-grain Hornady or the FMJ military ammunition. 
Profiles:
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=rifle&displayAll=1&brandID=3
http://www.hornady.com/store/.312-303-CAL/

The magazine in my rifle is not an original 10-shot military magazine, it is a Santa Fe arms five round magazine.

I open another box of the Belmont ammunition yesterday, pulled the bullets, and dumped the powder.  One round appeared to have a short charge but it did not dawn on me that I should weight before dumping it.

I consider the Jungle Carbine to be my close range, nasty weather rifle.  There is no concern about fogging or rain drops on the sights.  But I have thought about mounting a scope on it because the dominate right eye issue has not be a problem with scoped rifles, and I can be effective right or left handed. 
A 2x7x35MM scope similar to the Burris BDC scope I have on the 30-30 would be nice.  It would cure the low foresight issue, and there were no fogging issues when I used it this fall.  Scope and mount are very low on the priority list.

As I recall the barrel has 18 Tons stamped on it near the receiver.  I realize it is proofed to 18 Tons.  Assuming the Imperial System uses the Long Ton which is 2240 pounds, or 18X2240 =40320 pounds.  The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .303 British is 45,000 C.U.P. and the maximum pressure is 49,000 p.s.i.  It appears there are three or more standards.
The issue becomes a little more complex when .311 and .312 diameter bullets are tossed into the mix.  I went to the Hodgdon for reloading data online because provided the most up to date data for BL-C(2) powder which I have an ample supply.  Hodgdon shows a starting loading of 43.0 grains with the 150-grain Hornady .312 bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2502 fps, and a pressure of 34,000 CUP.  They show a maximum charge with the same bullet 48.0 grains with a muzzle velocity of 2756 fps, and a 39,200 CUP.  Close and under 18 Tons.

 Hodgdon data does not provide data for the Hornady, .312 diameter, 174-grain round nose.  It provides data for the 174-grain Sierra HPBT, .311 and the 180-grain Sierra SP, .311 diameter.  The highest pressure shown is 43,000 C.U.P.  In my simple math that exceeds 18 TONS, but not the SAAMI average of 45,000 CUP.  It appears that I need Brithunter to do the math in this case.

In the increments of my test loads with the 174-grain Hornady I have loaded up to 45-grains of BL-C(2) at this time.  The maximum charge shown with the 174-grain, .311 diameter Sierra bullet is 46.5.  Being I have the .303 dies setup on the bench, most likely I will pull additional bullets from the Belmont ammunition and load additional increments up to 46.5 grains of powder.
I need to prepare some targets and do some shooting.   



There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Brithunter

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2009, 11:51:46 PM »
Hmmmm not sure how I missed this thread  :-[ but I am rather partial to the 303 and it's rifles. Now your problem if I read it correctly in feeding spitzer or pointed bullets is that your magazine is wrong. There is about 7 different followers and several different bodies some of which onl yfeed the earlier round nosed bullets. I suggest you acquire a std 10 round No4 magazine and that should feed the pointed bulelts perfectly as it was meant for the Mk V11 spitzer bullet  ;) .

The most accurate bullet, soft point, that I have found for handloading is that Hornady 174 Grain RN one  ;D I was using H4895 behind it in a Sporterised No1 Mk111 built on a 1916 BSA made rifle if I did my part using the 4x32 scope that load would shoot under MOA  :o. and it has shot well in all the 303's I have tried I through.

Your problem with the battle sight is easily sorted out just buy a Parker-Hale 5C or a A.J. Parker TZ47 twin zero aperture sight and you can adjust them to sight in at any range you like  ;D they fit with no modifications to the rifle apart from popping off the std rear sight and replacing it with the new one. Lyman also made a reciever sight to fit these rifles.

Also the proof is 18.5 tons and not 18 Tons  ;) This is my current sporter built on a  No4 Mk1 of 1943 vintage that went through FTR at Fazakerly in 51 where it became a No1 Mk1/2 before being converted to it's current configuration as a Supreme sporter:-




Mine currently just has the std rear sight a Mk3 stamped one but I have the P-H scope bases for it and rings so can scope it if I wish as it was drilled and tapped for them during the conversion  ;).

Now I have had soem luck gettign good usable accuracy from the Hornady 150 grain Spire Point bullet but not through thsi rifle. I was working with at that time with another sporting conversion but this time a BSA converted P-14  ;D :-


I recently took the scope off and fitted this new Redfield 70 RWH reciever sight


It required a highr foresight to bring my eye a bit higher above the comb and make it more comfortable to shoot. Both of these feed the spitzer and rund nose bullets just fine.

Offline Mikey

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2009, 03:08:04 AM »
Guys - there is just something about a sporterized SMLE - they look so neat. 

Sisk:  get a factory 10 round magazine and install a wodden plug to limit the mag to 5 rounds.  About the only reason the SMLEs have problems feeding is because of the magazine lips which often deform easily.  You might be able to get that 5 rounder to feed properly from the right side by closing or opening up the right side feed lip a bit. The spire pointed soft nose probably catchs right at the mag/barrel juncture which causes it to jam and deform, whereas the mil-spec spire point will not deform and the round nose 174 gn soft point is too rounded to catch...just my thought. 

You may also find that loading your boolets out longer, to touch the rifling, may help prevent the jamming from the right side. 
HTH.  Mikey.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2009, 01:41:43 PM »
Thanks for the advice on purchasing an original 10-round magazine.  I believe that is good advice.  I have been thinking about hitting the Big Show in Reno in April 2010.  Should be a good chance of getting a ten round magazine at the show. 

I tried the functioning test again with the five round magazine yesterday.  It functioned without a problem with the 174-grain and 150-grain Hornady bullets.  It malfunction one time out of ten rounds with the 150-grain Sierra bullet.  You may have hit on the problem with the 150-grain bullet. I believe it is the length of the load.  I measured the two 150-grain bullets and the Hornady bullet is longer than the Sierra.  I am going to adjust the seating die so it seats to the bottom edge of the cannelura, not the top of the Hornady bullet.  The jam again occurred with the shell on the right side.  The case swung to the left of the bore and jammed on the face of the breech where the rim would rest.  A longer cartridge might prevent this from happening.  I should note that currently the loaded Hornady bullets and the Sierra bullet have the same over all cartridge length.  The round nose 174 feeds great and I think the profile of the 150-grain Hornady favors the rifle.

I am thinking the advertisement that the Belmont ammunition was an overrun on an RCMP contract was marketing, not the true, or the ammunition was rejected.  There are too many flaws for reliable LE ammunition.

The short Sierra bullet offers a shorter shank to be gripped in the case neck when seated out.  I mentioned before that I felt the tension on the bullet in the Belmont bullet was light.  On the cases I re-manufacture I tighten the neck tension about 0.18 of the neck on the end.  This is not a real big issue because I plan on using these bullets on the range. 

Brithunter:  Nice rifles and you reconfirm the 174-grain Hornady bullet is the bullet to go to.  I just checked the tracking number on my bullet order and it shows my order at the local post office.  I should have them in hand Monday afternoon.  Thanks for the sight options.  I am in a holding pattern until I get some range time with the new loads.  If the POI does not exceed three inches high at 100-yards I should not have a problem.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Brithunter

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2009, 01:10:13 AM »
Hi Siskiyou,

       Doh I just went to get the spare std magazine, I had a couple of them, then remembered that i sold them so Seth last year  ::), I only have the spare P-H altered five rounder now. Oh the Winchester 180 grain SP in the white box didn't shoot too badly either as I recall. Normas and Kynoch used to load 130 grain bulelts in their factory soft point for the 303. I have a box of the Norma but have never shot any of it.

Now if you want a really light 303 sportign rifle i suggest you take a loof at this:-




 yep it's a 303 Martini but this one will perform better with .308 bullets as it has a strange rifling form and it's tight! As you can see it's a Belgian made one due to the tight bore I have been shooting cast gas checked bullets but have not shot it for some while now.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2009, 05:51:41 AM »
Nice Martini.  Was your rifle always a commercial arm, or was it a re-done military rifle?
Back in the years when the light shined before 1968 I use to see a lot of Martini rifle offered in .310.  It might have been called the Martini Cadet.  I believe that conversion to the U.S. 32-20 was popular.  My assumption is the Martini action was chambered for a maze of calibers, in the same way the Remington Rolling Block was.  I would not be surprised that your rifle is a pleasure to load for and shoot.  Those Cadet rifles were about $15.00; today one of them might go for $700+.  A fine example like your 303 must be worth thousands.

After the first of the year a tour of gun shows should produce one.  Being the 174-grain Hornady feed properly a new magazine is not critical.  I cited the April gun show because I may face surgery on my right wrist early in the year.  If that effect my driving I will be home bound, I doubt my wife will play taxi to gun shows. 

I have had my rifle close to fifty years.  The first game taken with it was a charging jackrabbit, okay it was not charging.  I was out hunting on a brushy hillside and my hunting partner jumped the rabbit and took off in a circle route and ran into me.  I must say the 174-grain military FMJ round is very effective.  POI was not critical because the rabbit was very close.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Brithunter

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2009, 07:58:22 AM »
The martini is as it was built. It was built to order of the Sultan of Oman for his native levies or so I am told. They were ordered form both Belgium and Britain. It's a Muscat Martini. Sometime next year I will get back to working with the 303's but right now I am sorting out loads for a new acquistion a Parker-Hale 1200C in 25-06  ;).

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2009, 08:54:00 PM »
Siskiyou,
I've never been a big fan of the 303British, but one of my pals has one, and I've been following your thread here. Got me intrigued, so I picked up some dies and some brass from a member here last week. Today I was at the Black Sheep in Couer d'alene, Idaho, and found Hornady Interlocks in the 174gr RN and the 150gr SP. I bought a box of each. After re-reading your posts tonight, I'm wishing I'd left the 150's and picked up a 2nd box of the 174's. 

Loaded the first box of cartridges tonight and felt like I needed to keep COL a touch below 3.00", at 2.99", where my Speer #12 calls for 3.075" for their 180grSP and their 150grSP. I don't have a reference that lists the 174gr RN. Would you share your COL? I don't have access to my pal's rifle right now, and want to surprise him with the handloads. I'm sure the RN's need to be kept shorter than the SP's.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2009, 02:30:01 PM »
Sweetwater your timing is outstanding I have some rounds in pocket. I was taking pictures to demonstrate the difference between Berdan and Boxer primed brass.

Using the crimping groove as a guide my current 174-grain loads are 2.93 inches.  The Roundnose design feeds with no problem at this length; I apply a light crimp, and with the bullet seated so I can just catch the top of the cannelura.  The next batches I load with the Hornady 174 and 150-grain bullets I am going to lengthen the load slightly by seating to the bottom of the cannelura. 



Hornady 174-grain RN           2.92
Hornady 150-grain SP       2.98
Sierra 150-grain SP      2.93

Belmont loaded Sierra 150-grain SP   2.95
Federal Hi-SHOK 180-grain with cannelura.  1960’s manufacture    3.05
Santa Fe 150-grain SP with cannelura   similar to the 150-grain Hornady   2.98   

Military FMJ
1942 loaded in Canada       3.03

1952 Loaded in England      3.03

The 303 FMJ Spitzers is a long for weight bullet with the weight in the rear and cellulose or other material to make the round unstable on impact.  This gives a long shank for seating and bullet retention.

From an accuracy and functioning stand point I prefer the 174-grain Hornady Round (.312) nose in my rifle.  My experience with the 150-grain Hornady SP (.312) nose is nil, but I am not ready to toss the ones I have out with the dishwater.  I need to do some testing for functioning, accuracy, and velocity.  Right now all velocities are a wild guess, but I should have a better number once I fire over my Chrony. 

Is the .303 diameter bullet magic like the 6.5 bullet?  Using the Sierra Ballistics program I compared the 150-grain .308 diameter Hornady SP bullet to the 150-grain .312 Hornady bullet.  Both bullets were assigned a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps.  The .312 diameter bullet outperformed the .308 diameter bullet.  The limiting factors in the long run are the rifles, and the case.

Merry Christmas
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2009, 03:09:30 PM »

This is getting scary and I consulted the Hornady Manual.

150-grain SP C.0.L: 2.935”
174-grain RN C.O.L: 2.945”

Then I checked the Sierra Manual, better late than never, Right?

150-grain SPT C.O.A.L. 3.075”

I wonder if they use super glue to retain the bullet in the case?
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2009, 07:59:31 PM »
Thanks for the response! Appears COL's are everywhere. Puts me back into my comfort zone. I shortened the rounds I made last night to your 2.92" and using a Lee factory Crimp Die. Probably not necessary, but I keep reading about light neck tension with this round, so figured a little help wouldn't hurt.

Merry Christmas

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline Brithunter

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2009, 10:06:47 PM »
Hmmm have just been looing through my notes on the 303 and found early on I didn't note the COL  :-[ however I do nto recall evey experiencing poor neck tension  ???.

Now my last load for the 150 Grn Hornady's was at a COL of 2.98" using Nobel Speer "Vectan SP7 powder and with this load in my BSA Model E (sporterised P-14) that I took a tasty Fallow Doe a few years ago. As she was facing me almost head on I managed to recover the bullet under the hide of the rump, range was about 70 yards, I have also used the Sierra 150 Grn Pro Hunter with charges of between 39.0-42.0 grains and a seating depth of 3.035". Nearly all my handloads have been done using Milsurp Greek HXP 69 brass although I did load a few once fired Winchester brass that came from those 180 Grn White Box loads.

I have even had a modicome of success using the Hornady 130 grain .308 SP and the Sierra 150 Grn .308 Match King bullets.

The bullet which was pretty much a failure for me was the Speer 180 grain RNSP (#2223) as I failed to get any reasonable accuracy with it in my particular rifles at that time which was back in March 1997 :(. Oh the dies I use are the RCBS "Special" Reloader dies in the plastic bubble pack.

Hope that is of some use

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2009, 05:44:38 AM »
Brithunter:  Was the Greek HXP 69 brass Berdan or Boxer primed? 

A friend of mine was kind enough to offer up fifty loaded rounds of 303 HXP ammunition.  He did not state the year.  I held off on the offer because I think it maybe Berdan primed.  He has a military Martini in 303 and a Mark 3.  He does not reload so I sent him a picture showing the two different primers.  He lives about 600-miles from me so sending a picture was a good way to help communications.


I thought it was rather neat when he sent pictures of his two .303 rifles.  The eye catcher was his military Martini .303 after your posting on the Martini.  A rather rare sighting, then seeing two different ones in 24-hours was surprising.  The power of the internet.

Do you reload cases with Berdan primers, and if so what method do you use to extract them?  None of my priming equipment is setup for Berdan primers.  And I have not seen Berdan primers in the shop; of course seeing any primer, except shotgun, in a shop in not the norm today.

The neck tension has been fine when using my RCBS seating die.  I can guess that the lighter Belmont ammunition neck tension may have been the result of pulling the military FMJ bullet and inserting the Softpoint without paying any attention to the neck.  I suspect that in the process the neck opened up slightly creating lighter than normal tension on the bullet.  This did not become apparent until I pulled the Softpoint bullets.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Brithunter

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2009, 07:20:14 AM »
HXP, all that which I have handled which off the top of my head is HXP69 of course as I brought two cases of it  :) and some HXP 83. The 69 was better quality, well I think so. It's all Boxer primed  ;).

Now you have to be careful just lookign that sizes as I ahve soem French 303, yep they had soem 303 calibre machine guns made over a period of time from the 1920's up to the alte 1930's and it has three different primer sizes all of which seem to be Berdan. Due to the stupidity of the Plods here it's all in storage as they cut my ammunition holding to about half of what I already had  ::). I pulled soem of them and found at least three different types of bullets and different powders some stick/tubular and some flake.

As for the Martini's well I have just sold my Martini Enfield AC11 .303 as it now longer fitted into my small collection. It was the last military rifle I had.:-




Sorry I don't have any better photos of it. The pitted surface was caused due to surface rust. It was found standing in the corner of a damp celler back in 1996 and had to be proofed as it had no commercial proof marks.


Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2009, 12:15:13 PM »
Based on the picture of my friends Martini it kind of follows:
Crown
K.R.        not sure
Enfield
1887
V.       not sure
1.

The side of the rifle is not pitted but the writing is faded unevenly.  First though is it could be scabbard wear or contact wear.

Thanks for the information on the primers.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Brithunter

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2009, 02:30:30 PM »
Hmmm there is now K.R as these were made during Victorias reign so they would be marked V.R. However there are a load of Kyhber pass copies floating around the US so it's best to check it's an original. Gunboards has a dedicated Martini forum which you can check for the proper markings and Font.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: RE-Manufacturing, re-manufactured .303 British Ammuntion
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2009, 06:42:29 PM »
Brithunter:  I followed your lead and went to the following link. 

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Britain/Martini.htm

I went back to the picture my friend sent me of his rifle.    I noted earlier that I was not sure about the K.R.  after your post I think it is a badly faded V.R.  I was surprised to find one with those marking at the above link.  Again I am looking at one photo and not the rifle itself. 
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.