Unscientific Battery Test.

[Siskiyou]

I am always using up AA batteries in my camera, portable radio, gps, mini lights, and Walkman.  I have listed them in order  they die off.  That is based on my usage.  Maybe different tomarrow.  The point is the battery man is making bucks off me.  

I tested two different kinds of AA batteries.  The newer 1800 mAh NIMH Rayovac Rechageable.  I believe my older NIMH rechargeable batteries are 1200 mAh.  I tested against off the shelve Kodak AA Alkaline Batteries.  

I paid about $11.79 including tax for four rechargeable batteries.  I already had the charger.  Following the instructions I charged the new batteries before testing.  I then tested them and they appeared to be 1.2v. (They are rated at 1.2v) I place two of them in my Garmin Legend gps.  And turned it on at 10 a.m.  It started recieving and I went for a short walk with everything working.  Afterwards I placed it on a table in the recieving position, checking it off and on during the day.  A 8:00 p.m. I checked the battery information on the gps unit and it showed the battery just about gone.  I turned it off.  The next morning I turned the gps on and the battery showed recovery.  I had about one hour of operation time when it went down for good.

I then tested the gps with the two Alkaline batteries.  They cost about two dollars plus tax.  They tested fully charged and were at 1.5v.  I repeated the test.  Starting at 10 a.m.  When I checked the gps at 8:00 it was showing the low battery warning!  I would estimate based on the built in battery meter that the AA batteries had half the remaining juice the NIMH batteries had at this point.  I shut down the gps and turn it on the next morning.  The Alkaline batteries showed slight recover and failed within 15 minutes.

For years I learn to distrust Mecury and NiCAD recharageable batteries.  I was into using Alkaline AA batteries.  They would last a full shift.  The problem was they were expensive.  The NiMH batteries were not on the market at that time.  Based on this Good Ole Boy test, the NiMH batteries maybe the answer.  When I bought a digtal camera a couple of years ago I invested in three sets of four Energizer ACCU rechagerable batteries.  They are listed as NH15-AA, 1.2V, 1200mAh.  I did this because of the reports that Digtal camera's eat batteries.  These batteries have held up for 2.5 years.  They are going strong.  They do discharge some setting around.  We use them completely down then recharge them.  I suspect that I will replace them with 1800 mAh batteries when they go.

* A little footnote.  We bought #1 granddaughter a digtal camera for Christmas.  She has been killing off AA Alkaline batteries real fast.  The family has a charger for NiCad batteries.  Grandma and I went looking for NiCad's for her.  Oops could not find any.  Checked Radio Shack's web page and found that the price is around six dollars plus shipping and tax for two.  Not cost effective based on the life span of NiCad rechargeables.  A charger for NiMh(Nickel Metal Hydride) batteries with four batteries runs about twenty-eight dollars.  I suspect the charger and batteries will drop in price.  Rayovac claims up to one thousand recharges.

Based on history, if my life depended on it, I would go with Alkaline batteries over NiCad's.  I do not have a long enough history using NiMH AA batteries at this time to be sure, but I suspect they are a better answer then NiCad's.  The big problem with Alkaline batteries are they are a single use item, then you toss them.  I feel that a teenager with a digtal camera, and a walkman is a great battery tester.  How do you keep up with them?  I would be interested in hearing other's thoughts on NiMH batteries vs. Alkaline and NiCad.

Siskiyou

[Ka6otm]

Siskiyou,

As an Amateur Radio Operator of 22 years, I would like to offer the following observations.

I and my radio club have done Communications and Security for many public service events like parades, festivals, car shows and walk-a-thons for over 20 years at the rate of 3 or 4 events a year.  The radios and their batteries are mission critical and due to our combined experiences we have come to the following conclusions as a group:

1.  NiCd batteries offer a lot of charge/discharge cycles but...if you don't fully charge/discharge frequently, they develop memory effect (voltage depression) which means that they may only last an hour or so when you REALLY need them.

2.  NiMh batteries also offer a lot of charge/discharge cycles but...they self discharge rapidly (about 1 month to fully discharge)...so, when you need them, they may not be fully charged.  Also, if you don't use them for about a year, they won't recharge at all in some cases.

3.  Alkaline batteries have a one time only usage but...if they are unused and have not reached the end of their shelf life, you are in great shape.

4.  Lithium Ion batteries are a little in the unknown realm so far.  I have had a lot of experience with them as a design engineer and what I know is that you need to charge/discharge them frequently also and...if you use too large of a charging current, they can explode.  My design group once blew the lid off a 32 gallon garbage can testing this phenomenon.  It blew about 15 feet in the air.  This was with a pack that was around 4500 mAH.

So, when we go on public service events, some of us use NiCd and some of us use NiMh, but we all carry alkaline batteries with us in case the NiCd and NiMh fail....and they do fail on a regular basis.

FWIW

[Siskiyou]

Ka6otm:

Your observations fit mine.  I am looking at creating a discharger for my NiMh batteries.  In the Digtal camera bag sets the batteries discharge.  I would like to do a full recharge before a known event.

When I was working the office bought a machine to discharge and then recharge the NiCad batteries.  Without a doubt Motorola had the best batteries.

I get a kick out of what appears to be rechargeable radio battery mismanagement on Hill Street Blues.  They take radios out of the charger, and then return radios to the charger.  Never testing batteries, or radios.  Must have a great system.  When multiable people use radios they need close management to prevent critical failure in the field.  They could write ten shows on an officer getting shot, because of poor radio management.  I know it is just a TV show, but some people operate in that manner.  Who is the true Battery Hero on Hill Street Blues, John?

I know very little about Lithium Ion batteries.  I do know that for a while there was a concern about carrying them on aircraft.  I think that went away.  I am a hold out and have been hanging on to my 3 watt bag phone for years.  But as more cellphone towers go up, the little phones are starting to become more useable in rual areas.  I have a little guy on order.  Any recommendation for managing the battery for extended life? I always appreciated the service provided by the amateur radio clubs at events, and incidents.

Siskiyou

[Ka6otm]

Siskiyou,

Speaking of the battery mismanagement on Hill Street Blues, I recently got a first hand look at this.  I was rear-ended in Silicon valley while leaving a job and the CHP sent two officers in a cruiser to handle the incident.  The guy that rear-ended me wanted to call his Son to pick him up as the front end of his car was totaled and the cell phones carried by both of the officers had dead batteries...I had to lend him mine.

Yes, the concern for carrying lithium ion has gone away on airlines.  I travel on airlines about 12 times a year for my job and both my Laptop and my Cellphone use Lithium Ion, so that's obviously gone away.

By the way, I go to some pretty rural areas in my travels and about the only places I go where I can't get a cell are "security" areas in some buildings...like Lockheed Martin and NASA.  I think the reasons are pretty obvious.  They essentially make a room into a Faraday cage to elimninate RF eavesdropping.

For battery management, I do essentially as the battery manufacturers recommend.  When the battery is new, charge it fully and then leave the cell phone or laptop or whatever it is on until it is fully discharged.  Do this 3 or 4 times when new.  From then on, fully discharge the battery pack at least once a month and charge again.

By the way, there are numerous battery chargers/cyclers out there that cost very little and handle all this for you.  For my NiCd and NiMh packs in my radio gear, I use a MAHA MH-C777 unit.  It fully discharges the pack down to 1Volt/cell in about 15 minutes, then recharges it fully in about 1 hour.  This unit works with all battery packs I have from 8.4V 500mAH to 12V 4000mAH.  It looks at the battery when you plug the pack in, determines the amount of cells by the terminal voltage, does the math to come up with the voltage to stop the discharge at, then rapid charges using what's called delta T (looking for a sharp bump in the pack temperature).  This method also effectively eliminates memory effect in NiCd packs within 1 or 2 cycles.  And it only cost $40 at a Radio convention I attended.  There are other units out there to handle almost anything you would have.

Take care,
Ka6otm

[Siskiyou]

Ka6otm:

I am still finding a lot of areas without cellphone service in the Mts. of N.Cal., Oregon, Nevada, Utah, and Idaho.  The old 3 watt bag phone works where the guys with the .6w phones are hiking around trying to get service.   One of the areas I hunt, I have to drive out to a mountain top and look across a valley to another Mt. top to get service.  That is the nature of being in the Mountains and canyons.  If you are along a major corridor such as I-5, I-15, or I-80 there are few problems.

Purchased adaptors and magnetic antenna's for some folks working in a remote site last summer.  Understand there is an amp that will bring the .6 watt cellphones up to 3 watts.  The price is around $400.00.  Way to rich for my blood.  Puts me back into using smoke signels and mirrors.

I think that all this new science has spoiled us a little.  While it makes life better in some cases, it also takes away from life.  For me the cellphone lets me go out and enjoy life while waiting for an assignment.  Rather then hanging around phone in the hurry-up and wait mode.  On the days that hunting is good, I am in an area that has no service.

Thanks for the info on the Lithimn Ion battery.


Siskiyou

[Ka6otm]

Siskiyou,

Glad I was able to help a little.  I know what you mean about no cell service in canyons and such in the mountains.  I've run across this a few times myself while out hunting.

I'm not sure about the legality of the amp for the cellphone...kind of thought the FCC might frown on this, but I'm not sure.

However, if you can't raise a cell site with your existing antenna, the amp won't help you any unless it's got a built in preamp for receive.  Having said that though, the almost 7dB increase in output power might be useful.

Mostly in Ham Radio we have found that antennas are 95% of the system.  My particular passion is low power operation.  I usually run around 5 watts on HF and have talked to most of the world this way.  HF however, is used by bouncing the signal off the ionosphere and back to earth.  Cell phones run in the High UHF region..about 859-900 MHz and the ionosphere doesn't reflect this high of a frequency, so it just goes on through and out into space.

But you should see the antenna I use for this...25 foot boom and 4 horizontal elements each around 25 feet long...a little impractical to take into the woods.

Take care,
Ka6otm

[JMCrane]

Would like to see Siskiyou's test of alkaline vs Nimh repeated using newer 2200 Mah.  I have used 1600's in my Olympus camera and they give about double usage that alkaline. I just ordered Maha Nimh set of 4 2200's for $17.97 and can't wait to try them. I am aware of shelf life issues but when I grab my camera for a weekend fishing or hunting trip the Nimh go alot farther than alkaline.  I do keep a set of new alkaline in the camera case just in case.

[Siskiyou]

JMCrane:

I was a little slow in responding to your post because I just "needed" to do a little field testing.  At 0600 I powered up my Garmin Legend gps loaded with two Rayovc 1600 NiMH batteries.  The gps shut down at approximately 1930 because the batteries were dead.  I consider this very good preformance.  Thirteen and a half hours of good service.  During this time I created a number of waypoints to mark schools of fish, and had the tracking mode on.  This set of batteries has been charged and discharged a number of times.  

When we bought our digital camera I bought 4-sets of four Energizer NiMH batteries (1200).  One of those sets I gave to a granddaughter who was having problems with a set of Energizer 1850 batteries.  We traded battery sets.  The 1200 work great in her camera and the Energizer 1850's work in our digital camera.  I have not tried the 1850's in the gps. ( I quess I feel the need to go fishing again.)  This may have been a problem with the camera.

I purchased 6 sets of 4 Lenmar NoMemPro nickel Metal-Hydride batteries.  They are part number PRO415-20 and are rated at 1.2 volts-2000mAh.  I have them in a AA flashlight on my boat and have been using them in my gps.  Twice I have had to change batteries when I thought I should be getting more service from them.  My usage is not a bench mark test, so there are a lot of variables that goes into the battery usage.  I gave my granddaughter a set of these batteries.  She has had no problems with them.  She uses them along side the Energizer 1200's and see's no difference.

I mention earlier that she was having a problem with the 1850 batteries in her camera.  I did not take any measurements but it might have been a slight difference in size.  Years ago we found out that a large lot of Kodak Alkaline batteries were slightly over sized.  This caused a problem with the battery packs for portable radio's.  The battery packs started cracking because of the increased stress.  This problem apprears to have been resolved.  At the time they rated the best when tested by radio tech's.  

The other day I soldered a 12v. light bulb to a battery pack to use as a drain for rechargeable batteries.  It works.

JM let us know how the Maha 2200 batteries hold up.  I am not in the market for additional batteries at this time, but Christmas is coming.  Grandkids with Walkmen and degital camera's require battery power.

Siskiyou

[tucoblue]

Has anyone tested the Energizer NiMH 2500mh AA batteries? Curious about their performance against Energizer AA alkaline batteries.

[Siskiyou]

tucoblue:  I mentioned in a earlier post that I was having to recharge a couple of sets of Lenmar No Mem Pro 2000 batteries a little more often.  Those batteries are still in use.  But their useful life is only a few hours in a Garmin Legend gps unit.  I only use them for local walks when I am just tracking milage.  I suspect that "1" package of batteries is sub par.  I have other batteries from the same series that are still doing a good job.

The new generation of Garmin gps units get longer battery life.  My wife gave me a Garmim GPs Map76C for Christmas.  I have spent a lot of hours getting to know it.  Both Alkaline and Nickel Metal-Hydride batteries show extended life in the 76C.

I will be keeping my eye open for the Energizer 2500 mh AA batteries you mention.  I have had very good results with earlier model Energizer batteries.  From my experience they are a better battery then the Lenmar battery.  Between us and grandkids we have a number of sets(Energizers) in use.  I believe that some are 3 or 4 years old and we have not suffered a failure with them yet.

I just checked with a granddaughter whom we gave a charger, Energizer batteries, and Lemar batteries.  All the batteries are holding up under heavy use.  

Have you seen a price on the 2500mh AA batteries?

I recently read an article stating the average American household now has 24 devices that are battery powered.  It made me think a little.  Between flashlights, portable radios, cellphones, household phones, and remote controls we are a battery powered nation.

[tucoblue]

I saw the Energizer 2500 Nimh AA's mentioned on <www.geocaching.com>. They were purchashed at H. Depot or Lowes for about $20.00 with charger. I suppose that is two batteries but not sure. I would ask the question over there but I keep getting "Circled" so gave it up. Checked the local H.D. today but they don't have the 2500's or the charger.

Gps, flash lights, clocks, two-way radios, etc. have me buying the alkaline 36 pack. Will have to pull out the calculater to see where I am with the $$$$$ for the batteries for all this stuff. It could be time to start making the switch to rechargeables.

[daddywpb]

I gave up on rechargeable batteries last season. Charging them before a day afield was just one more thing to remember to do. In my experience, they develope memory very quickly, and then they're pretty much worthless. I had my flashlight die on me a couple times after only a few minutes of use, and I threw the batteries and the charger in the garbage. I carry a spare set of alkalines in my pack, and Costco has a 36 pack of Duracell AA's for $20.

[tucoblue]

Energizers are less than $12.00 for the 36 pack at H. Depot.

[Siskiyou]

Yesterday was a battery eater!   Granddaughter #3 and I went geocaching.  The search was more complex then the normal one because we did one that required entering lat/Longs as we progressed into the tour.  This kind of activity eats battery power.

The Garmin Legend gps was loaded with freshly charged with Lenmar NoMem Pro, 2300Omah Nickle Metal-Hydride batteries.  These batteries failed after three hours of full time use.  I purchased these batteries last fall.  My impression is that Lenmar Batteries are not a good deal.  I purchased two packages of four batteries.  The failure rate is approximately 50 percent.  

My Garmin GpsMap76C is still loaded with the old Rayovac 1800 Nickle Metal-Hydride batteries that I bought a couple of years ago.  Admittedly the new battery saving technology in the 76C was a factor,  but it's performance with the less powerful battery yesterday was over eight hours and the meter shows 50 percent remaining battery life.

My conclusion is that the Lemar brand batteries have not been a good investment.  I have purchased Eight packages of four during the last couple of years and the failure rate is high.  Compared to the Energizer and  Rayovac brand batteries, which have not suffered a failure.  

When things get serious I fall back on Alkaline batteries.  While they cost more they will not suffer a sudden death in the field.  Rechargeable batteries require attention.  About 80 percent of the population have a hard enough time checking the oil in their car much less maintaining batteries.  When I was on duty I had a 3-cell Alkaline battery flashlight along with my rechargeable StreamLight.  I knew the rechargeable flashlight was great for 1/2 hour use then I would be in the dark.

Because I use a lot of batteries I will continue to use rechargeble batteries.  But my next purchase most likely will be the 2500 Mah batteries Energizer that tucoblue brought to my attention.  I would also buy Rayovac batteries.  Non of the three brand batteries mentioned here are manufactured in the United States.

[Siskiyou]

Earlier in this form I mention that I was building a battery discharge unit.  I have an eight battery AA battery box and have solder a 12v automotive light to it.  It takes about two hours to fully discharge eight batteries.  

The Lenmar web page recommends 3 full discharges and 3 full discharges to bring the rechargeable battery back to capacity.  Lets see what happens.  The claim is that NIMH batteries are good for thousands of recharges, and do not develope a memory.

When I was on the job full-time we had an expensive machine that did the charging and discharging automatically.  At that time we were using ni-cad batteries.  I did not like the results or trust the process after having a radio go dead on me a few times. :evil:   I always carried extra batteries with me.  Without a doubt the NIMH batteries are a better deal.

I had forgotten about building the discharge unit, but it is busy tonight.

[daddywpb]

Just a side note:
For all you Surefire users, there's a company selling the CR123 3V Litium batteries that you need on Ebay for $1 a piece. A little bit more after shipping, but much less than I've found them for anywhere else. I just ordered them - hopefully I'll get them before the turkey opener next Saturday. I'm sold on my surefire Nitrolon. The relatively short 1 hour battery run is an acceptable trade off for good strong light in the woods. By the way, Surefire says they're waterproof. They are. Mine ended up in a canal last weekend - still works fine.

[Siskiyou]

daddywpb:  Let us know how it works out.  The cost of batteries for the SureFire makes one think.  Your source sounds like a good deal.

[Nixter]

Wally -World has a charger and 4 AA 2500mAh batteries for $18.87.

So far my digital camera (Canon PowerShot a300) likes them very much.

Put a full charge into them on Friday and took 15 High-res photos and 1 movie since then. Camera will still take pics and movies.

Not a real scientific test but my real world experiences.

On a side-note. My friend has just recieved a Magellan Meridian Platinum as a gift. Can this unit use NiMH batteries? I think a set of these 2500 mAh batteries would be a great gift.

Thanks for your time.

Nixter

[Siskiyou]

Why not.  The batteries and charger would be a good gift.  I checked the manual and it just says  two AA batteries.  The four pack and charger would give him two spares.

[Nixter]

Eight days later.

The camers mentioned above has sat un-used for eight days. Just went and took 10 more pictures and 4, 15 second movies with no battery problems yet. As I sit here the camera is and continues to work just fine.

I'll try the batteries in my GPS tomorrow.

It's a Garmin V.

Total pix on the camera is 32. Movies, 5, 15 sec vids with sound. This is with a one week downtime between uses.

I am real happy with these Energizer re-chargeables so far.



Nixter

[Siskiyou]

Attention Nixter and tucoblue:  Back in April Nixter was using a set of Energizer 2500mAh batteries.  Let tuecoblue and me know how the batteries are holding up after three months of use.

A couple of days ago I bought a set of eight Energizer 2500mAh batteries.  I'll start testing two of them in a gps in a couple of days.  I read the warranty on the back of the package.  The amount they want for shipping a faulty battery back is more then  the cost of a single battery.  A no win warranty.  It speaks for itself.

[Siskiyou]

The first test series.  I used a Garmin Legend gps.  Garmin claims it will get up to 18 hours use from a set of Alkaline batteries.  Batteries tested are Energizer 2500mAh which I bought a big box store for $15.99 US + tax for two boxes of four

The Legend uses two AA batteries at a time.  The first round batteries where brought to a full charge two weeks before the test.  The storage temperatures ran from the low 60's to 79 degrees.  The trip computer was used on the unit to measure the operating time.  The unit was placed on the dinning room table. Under roof and surrounded by tall trees the unit received from four to seven satellites.

At 13 hours and 40 minutes I shut the unit off because I was not going to be around.  Later I turned it back on and it went dead at approximately 14:22 hours.  It was receiving seven satellites at the time.

I then test a second set of the same batteries.  They had been charged two days before.  They lasted 15 hours and 54 minutes.  

I then loaded freshly recharged set one.  They lasted 18 hours when the low battery message came on the screen.  I suspect I could have gotten a few more minutes out of the set.

I will continue to use these batteries in the normal course of events.  If they hold up I will by additional batteries.