Author Topic: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...  (Read 2401 times)

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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2010, 11:56:30 AM »
And how could you blame a homeowner who was simply prepared to defend his home?

In the eyes of the news media, and sadly many citizens, you shouldn't be doing that anyways because "risk" of something like that is too great.

Case in point that a lot of them like to throw up is some Japanese exchange student back in the 90's.  He was trying to go to a party, went to the wrong house, and when he walked in on the occupants and they were yelling for him to get out he couldn't quite understand, and was fatally shot.

Sad story, really, and I really do feel bad that someone with no directly evil intentions was killed, but honestly, what do you expect?  Someone you obviously don't know enters your home, you better be prepared to react or suffer some pretty extreme possible consequences.  It's not worth the risk.  I feel bad for him in the same way I feel about someone who stepped out in front of a car and was killed.  I wish it hadn't happened, but in the end they made a mistake that they paid for.

Then you have the even WORSE idiots who think everyone should lay down and take whatever.  On one site one of them (a European, but still) was even saying "Even if they're going to steal my stuff or rape someone, that's not murder.  It's not worth KILLING someone over.".  At that point you can just give up arguing.  They're of a broken mental state that will not see your viewpoint.

A coworker at my last job (about 6 years ago - I was teaching at a private tech school at the time) came into the break room one day and said that she had seen a gun laying on one of the other teacher's seats in their car.  She was horrified.  I and most of the other instructors pretty much shrugged it off and explained to her that we really didn't care, and it made sense to want to defend yourself.  Even after 30 minutes of debating the best we could ever get out of her was "Well, ok, you can defend yourself, but learn karate or something.  You shouldn't use a GUN!".  She didn't see how senseless it was to hobble one's ability to defend yourself because in her view, the gun was inherently evil merely because it was a gun.  She was conditioned that way.

In the eyes of these people if you shoot a police officer who barges into your house at 2am then it's not a case of the police being careless, but rather an example of why homeowners shouldn't be allowed to own guns.  "That's the sort of stuff that happens" they'll say.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2010, 01:23:50 PM »
I have a friend who is a county deputy and this area used to be where he worked most of the time. He dropped by often when he had time and was in the area to talk.

He dropped by rather late one evening well after dark and rang the doorbell. As is my SOP in such situations I asked thru the door who it was and what they wanted. He identified himself to me and said: "Bill you won't need that gun in your hand". He was naturally right as there is no way I'd go near the door at night when not expecting someone without one in hand.

Of course I laid it on the stereo speaker by the door and opened it to him once he identified himself to me. He just dropped by to invite me to the machine gun shoot that weekend.

Another quite different situation developed many years ealier when we lived in a 12'x65' trailer. Faye had witnessed a drug dealer in the area and while I don't think she saw any deal go down we were a bit on hightened alert just the same.

A child hood neighbor and friend who is also Faye's cousin had come up to pick up his laundry which Faye's grandmother did for him at that time. He came over for a short visit but made a near fatal mistake in the process. He rang the doorbell and I was on the far end of the trailer and asked rather loudly who it was several times on the way up the hall and again as I neared the door with no response.

I stood well to the side and cranked out the window a bit to get a view and saw a handgun and a voice saying "stick em up". BAD IDEA! I ducked quickly to the bedroom and came out with a revolver cocked and ready for a gun fight. I think he knew how badly he had messed up as soon as I ducked and went to the bedroom. He began to shout it's me, it's me don't shoot. I then asked WHO me is and he finally identified himself. It turned out to be a cap pistol one of the boys had left on the lawn but in that short moment in the dark when someone puts even a cap pistol to the window and says stick em up that's a good way to be shot around my house.

I'm not sure if he really knows just how close he came to being shot that night but he clearly was quite scared as he knew well when I disappeared I'd be back with a gun.

Folks need to use a bit of common sense and especially so when coming to someone's house in the dark late at night with no previous notice you'll be dropping by. Pointing a gun and saying stick em up is about as stupid as it gets. Cops who knock down doors at night and enter homes dressed in black and hidden behind masks should expect to be shot. All of them screaming at the top of their lungs in the manner they did in that video is not a way to let the home owner know who you are and your intentions. Knocking down a door without giving enough time for anyone to reasonably get there to open it is even more stupid.

Common sense is not so common anymore.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline mechanic

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2010, 03:33:06 PM »
Posted by: Graybeard
Common sense is not so common anymore.



Truer words have never been spoken......
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline jpred1

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2010, 04:35:28 PM »
 Just watched the vid. Just goes to show us how screwed up things really are in all aspects . I could type for hours about how I feel about this vid but I will just leave it at that.
Still dreaming of that Boone and Crocket Pistol Kill!!!

Offline ironglow

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2010, 01:05:33 PM »
  While I refuse to paint all lawmen and agencies with a broad brush, I can admit that I was shocked by the scene pictured below and as I recall, it was the first time I had seen such acts on closeup vodeo (they didn't show the public the real brutality at Waco and Ruby Ridge). It doesn't seem that it was necessary for the little boy to have an assault weapon stuck up his nose ! I say this in view that the family raided in such a brutal manner were not part of a drug cartel, were not murderers..and weren't even armed.
    Anybody here remember the incident ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline FWiedner

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2010, 02:49:00 PM »
I have a different view on little Elian.

I see it as the way all illegal immigrants should be treated.

 :)

They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2010, 04:44:57 PM »
I totally agree with the way ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS should be treated but the problem with this little boy and his dead mother was that the US has a "dry toe" policy and these people came here with that in mind. it may not be fair policy but it was the policy and that woman gave up her life to give freedom to that child. He should have been allowed to stay here because he made it here!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Dee

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2010, 02:35:33 AM »
And his father's rights?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2010, 03:26:14 AM »
Yes there are times when police make mistakes and are too agressive.

But this story is false in two points minimum. Number one it was not the wrong house. Two this does not happen every day, it is the exception to the rule. One thing about hitting a drug house is that you do have to be in fast. If you go to the door knock and say please come open the door we would like to search your house for drugs. You will hear a flushing of the toilet.

99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2010, 03:55:44 AM »
I think many police departments are good and respect citizens , There are some that must justify every thing they buy .So if they have a SWAT team they must use it for things where maybe a SWAT team isn't the best choice . Here they block the sewer , cover the house then either knock on the door or phone . This gives the person inside a chance to come out but not flush drugs . If they have to go in then its justifyed at that point . And yes in certian cases they do a no knock .
As far as an out of control dog , even a cops dog out of control should be put down if someone is in danger of being hurt. There was a case back in the 70's up in PA where 2 cops went to a house and kicked in the front door and got killed . seems the warrant was for a house that looked the same but was a couple blocks over with same numbers in address . This is the price of humans running things and having freedom . The way i deal with it is if a cop says do something i do ( he has a gun and i have no idea what his attitude is ) . If he ask permission to search me . home or vehicle I refuse to give it . Why , because let him list what he is looking for , I don't allow fishing trips . If at anytime in the process he breakes the law i will press charges . I was stopped a few days ago and allowed my company truck to be searched and wish i had not before asking more questions . It was more a dog and pony show as they never ask my name or looked in the cab .That said when getting on public transport I am a bit more inclined to allow a look see . First i don't have to ride it and second they may catch something one day that saves lives . Its just a by product of no profiling as they have to pick from everyone not just the ones that mess up .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2010, 04:54:02 AM »
We no longer have police, we have par-military pretending to be cops. They no longer were police uniforms. They were Military gear! It is no longer protect and serve, but them against us.
  I know some guys I went school with long ago that were cops. Most after being on the force for two or three years no longer assonate with old friends, they only hang out with other cops. At that point they have been indoctrinated into the us against them mentally.
     Maybe they should only be allowed to be a cop for three years and be drafted like the army used to be.
                                            Beerbelly

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2010, 06:57:32 AM »
And his father's rights?

Dee his Father is a communist that only wanted the boy back because he was told he wanted the boy back. He rights are of no importance to me.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Dee

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2010, 07:09:36 AM »
Well I don't know what the father wanted as no one apparently asked him, and I honestly don't think ANYONE knows the man's heart. They can only speculate. I suppose if we don't agree with a man's theology, then we, as Americans, can just keep his children. ??? I don't agree with "some" Church of Christ theology, but I don't see depriving them of their children.
The mother AND the son were in this country illegally. How can one be AGAINST illegal immigration from Mexico, and FOR IT from Cuba. Especially when the LIVING "BIOLOGICAL" FATHER, doesn't want to be an American and wants HIS SON, to be with him? Can that be right, just because WE say it's right? I don't think so.
Are we "MORAL Americans" or just Americans? We don't seem to want "our parental rights" taken away, but we have "no problem taking others parental rights", or we say WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR PARENTAL RIGHTS. That seems contradictory.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2010, 04:47:53 PM »
I made no mention of the Fathers theology only his politics,  ???  he surely made no attempt to free his family from communism. At the time the kids family stated that the Father was estranged and that he did not see the boy. Maybe I read too much into that.

You'll be happy to know that Elian is now a card carrying communist wearing the cuban military uniform. What a victory Clinton handed Castro then.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Dee

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2010, 04:54:11 PM »
Perhaps he believes in Communism. As I recall the mother took the son and fled Cuba not telling the father. I am indifferent to Elian's present status. He is in Cuba with his family, and I am here. He was an ILLEGAL ALIEN while here.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2010, 03:11:27 PM »
I see on the news where a SWAT team in Detroit just murdered a seven year old girl. This BS is out of control!!! It is time to put a stop to murder by COP!!!
                               Beerbelly

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2010, 05:12:59 AM »
I see on the news where a SWAT team in Detroit just murdered a seven year old girl. This BS is out of control!!! It is time to put a stop to murder by COP!!!
                               Beerbelly



Not sure we should call it murder, but an innocent child was killed, and someone should pay. One would think the police could have found a way to arrest a suspect without endangering the lives and property of a home full of people.
Below is a story I found on swat teams, and one I agree with.

SWAT Overkill: The Danger of a Paramilitary Police Force
In a guest editorial, law professor and instapundit.com blogger Glenn Reynolds argues that overagressive tactics and surplus military gear have turned some police units into a dangerous menace.
By Glenn Harlan Reynolds

SOLDIERS AND POLICE are supposed to be different. Soldiers are aimed at enemies from outside the country. They are trained to kill those enemies, and their supporters. In fact, "killing people and breaking things" are their main reasons for existence.

Police look inward. They're supposed to protect their fellow citizens from criminals, and to maintain order with a minimum of force.

It's the difference between Audie Murphy and Andy Griffith. But nowadays, police are looking, and acting, more like soldiers than cops, with bad consequences. And those who suffer the consequences are usually innocent civilians. The trend toward militarizing police began in the '60s and '70s when standoffs with the Black Panthers, the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the University of Texas bell tower gunman Charles Whitman convinced many police departments that they needed more than .38 specials to deal with unusual, high-intensity threats. In 1965 Los Angeles inspector Daryl Gates, who later became police chief, signed off on the formation of a specially trained and equipped unit that he wanted to call the Special Weapons Attack Team. (The name was changed to the more palatable Special Weapons and Tactics). SWAT programs soon expanded beyond big cities with gang problems.

Abetting this trend was the federal government's willingness to make surplus military equipment available to police and sheriffs' departments. All sorts of hardware is available, from M-16s to body armor to armored personnel carriers and even helicopters. Lots of police departments grabbed the gear and started SWAT teams, even if they had no real need for them. The materiel was free, and it was fun. I don't blame the police. Heck, if somebody gave me a Bradley Fighting Vehicle to play with, I'd probably start a SWAT team, too--so long as I didn't have to foot the maintenance bill.

Thus, the sheriff's department in landlocked Boone County, Ind., has an amphibious armored personnel carrier. (According to that county's sheriff-elect, the vehicle has been used to deliver prescriptions to snow-bound elderly residents, and to provide protection during a suspected hostage situation.) Jasper, Fla.,--with 2000 inhabitants and two murders in the past 12 years--obtained seven M-16s from the federal government, leading an area newspaper to run a story with the subhead, "Three stoplights, seven M-16s."

This approach, though, has led to problems both obvious and subtle. The obvious problem should be especially apparent to readers of this magazine: Once you've got a cool tool, you kind of want to use it. That's true whether it's a pneumatic drill, a laser level or an armored fighting vehicle. SWAT teams, designed to deal with rare events, wound up doing routine police work, like serving drug warrants.

The subtle effect is also real: Dress like a soldier and you think you're at war. And, in wartime, civil liberties--or possible innocence--of the people on "the other side" don't come up much. But the police aren't at war with the citizens they serve, or at least they're not supposed to be.

The combination of these two factors has led to some tragic mistakes: "no knock" drug raids, involving "dynamic entry," where the wrong house has been targeted or where the raid was based on informants' tips that turned out to be just plain wrong.

On Sept. 23, 2006, a SWAT team descended on the home of a farmer and his schoolteacher wife in Bedford County, Va. "I was held at gunpoint, searched, taunted and led into the house," A.J. Nuckols wrote to his local paper. "I was scared beyond description. I feared there had been a murder and I was a suspect." When the couple's three children came home, the police grilled them, too. The family was held under guard for five hours as the SWAT team ransacked the place, seizing computers, a digital camera, DVDs and VHS tapes. Ten days later, the cops returned the belongings. It turned out that a special anti-child-porn police unit had made a mistake while tracing an computer address and sent the SWAT team to the wrong home.

Sometimes, homeowners are killed in these actions; other times, it's the officers. When a narcotics task force raided a duplex apartment in Jefferson Davis County, Miss., in 2001, they arrested one tenant, then burst into the adjacent apartment of Cory Maye. Thinking a burglar had broken into the bedroom he shared with his toddler daughter. Maye shot the officer fatally. Maye was convicted of murder and sentenced to death. However, his sentencing was overturned, and a motion for a new trial is still pending.

And, in a case that is now drawing national attention, 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston, who lived in a high-crime neighborhood of Atlanta, recently opened fire on police when they broke down her door while executing a drug warrant. They returned fire, killing her. It's hard to believe any of this would have happened had the police taken a less aggressive approach in the first place.

It used to be that police came to the door, announced themselves and, once a homeowner responded, entered the premises. Most policemen still work this way. But an alarming number now break down doors first and ask questions later. Don't get me wrong: Police often do dangerous work and they need equipment that's going to protect them. And dynamic entry is valid when dealing with desperate criminals, but these tactics put ordinary citizens--and the police--at risk. And when they do, it's often hard to get redress. Lawsuits against police and supervisors face strict legal limits in the form of "qualified immunity," and prosecutors, who work with the police on a regular basis, are unlikely to bring criminal charges against officers who negligently kill people. But homeowners confronted with tactics like flash-bang grenades and shouting that are intended to disorient targets, tend to be held to a much higher standard. The result, as in the Cory Maye case, is that people who do the laudable thing and defend their homes against unknown, armed intruders sometimes wind up being prosecuted for murder.

I discussed the issue with political commentator Radley Balko, who wrote a troubling report titled "Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America." Balko said that the problem is more common than people realize. He suggests that accountability and transparency are what we need. I agree. Police raids should be videotaped, in an archival format that discourages tampering. And I think we need legal reform, too. Police who raid the wrong house, or who fail to give homeowners adequate warning except in truly life-or-death situations, shouldn't benefit from official immunity.

Our homes are supposed to be our castles. The police shouldn't treat them like enemy camps.
Freedom Of Speech.....Once we lose it, every other freedom will follow.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Wrong House..This is Happening all over America everyday...
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2010, 09:52:50 AM »
Quote
Seems this was an attack with a video crew tagging along for a drama story.  Cop doing shooting of girl had a record of unnecesary shooting last year...now on admin leave with pay. Two conflicting reports: either the little girl was shot by several rounds fired thru front window; or shot while the cop was wrestling the girl's grandmother to the floor...??

In any case, if they wanted some adult in the house why not wait to he leaves the house and grab him and shove a warrant in his face; instead of attack raid.?  It is just plain foolish to think something can't go wrong on these kinds of attacks on civilians.

..TM7




You are correct, and the same goes for some of these high speed chases.  I realize some are necessary, but certainly not all......if it resuts in the death of innocents, it has to be asked, "was it worth it?"
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)