Author Topic: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.  (Read 512 times)

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Offline AK737FO

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Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« on: August 20, 2009, 06:48:55 AM »
Just for fun I thought I would post an email that I sent to my Dad and a hunting buddy yesterday.  We are all going to be deer hunting with Marlin 45/70’s this fall, in grizzly country.  I’m trying to find the right balance of accuracy and power.  Feel free to add your two cents!

 

I put my 20 test rounds down range and came up with some frustrating data.  What I have so far is not good enough.  I will need to run another test batch
 
Parameters: 
 
Marlin 1895GS with 3X Leupold.
No sight adjustments were made. 
I used a Lead Sled shooting rest, loaded up with 60 pounds of weight.  Recoil was not a factor.
All shots were done at 100 yards.
The barrel was reasonably cool at all times, only slightly warm to the touch.
I shot 4 rounds at each powder charge.
I started with 42 grains and worked my way up.
All loads were done with IMR 4198 and a Magnum rifle primer.
None of the casings showed significant pressure signs.  At the higher end loads, the primers started to show a touch of pressure signs.
Leadhead bullets, 425 gr. WFNGC.
 
Results:
 
42 grains:
4 shot spread (the two widest points) = 3.29
3 shot widest point = 1.55
2 shot (closest - smallest distance between any 2 rounds) = 0.96
Average = 1.93
 
43 grains:
4 shot = 2.80
3 shot = 2.21
2 shot = 0.39 (but these two rounds were about 2 inches right of the other 2 rounds!)
Average = 1.80
 
44 grains:
4 shot = 2.60
3 shot = 2.44
2 shot = 0.63
Average = 1.89
 
45 grains:
4 shot = 3.82
3 shot = 2.88
2 shot = 1.29
Average = 2.66
 
46 Grains:
Two shots completely off target, I think they missed high.
Two shots on target were 2.10 spread.
 
Conclusion:

I think I found the limit of how hard we can push this bullet.  I am amazed at the difference one or two grains of powder can make in accuracy.  The 45 and 46 grain loads, which should be about 1900 fps were worthless.  The 43 and 44 grain loads which should be about 1600 to 1700 fps were the most accurate.  I should note that the very first shot at 42 grains was several inches lower than the remaining 3.  This skewed the data significantly.  First shot out of a cold barrel?  A little to much Hoppes left in the bore?  I pulled the first shot?  Who knows.  The data seems to show that less powder is better.  Of course I don't want to down load this thing to much and negate the power that the rifle is capable of, so I need to find the sweet spot.
 
I am thinking of loading up another 20 test rounds, starting at 40 grains.  4 rounds each at 40, 41, 42, 43 and 44 grains. 
 
Do you think that the Magnum primer could be causing any problems?  I don't want to introduce to many variables, but I could switch to a standard primer.  IMR 4198 is a mid to slow burning powder.  Could the Magnum primer ignite the powder to fast?  I don't know,  I'm reaching here, but I think the gun should be capable of a lot better.  Unless you guys convince me otherwise, I think I will stay with the Magnum primer, for consistency, on the next 20 test rounds.
 
In closing, the average spread does not seem to bad on the 42, 43, and 44 grain loads mathematically, but if you were to see the targets, you would be as frustrated as I am.  There was ample spread and what I would usually call a flyer on each target.  Put in perspective, these loads may not be capable of a head shot at 100 yards.  If you got that "flyer" on that particular trigger squeeze you may very well miss.  That is just not good enough for me, I know this gun can do better.
 
Suggestions / comments / analysis?



Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 10:24:17 AM »
Ak,
I load for accuracy checks much like you've done here, plenty of times. What I've found is that my groups will get better up to a point, then they start to open back up. I don't think any of my hunting loads get up to the max listeing in the manuals.
  All that being said, something in your combination may not work for your particular rifle. I seem to remember reading that Marlin had 2 different styles of rifling in their 45/70s. One of them was designed more toward lead and the other was for jacketed types. I don't know if that could be part of the equation or not.
Have ya got any jacketed bullets to try? Do ya think your barrel was starting to lead up? Did ya let it cool completely and clean it(at least push a rag thru it) occassionally?

Just a couple of things I can think of right off...


HWD

Offline Catfish

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 11:57:07 AM »
Every barrel is different. With my .17 AH the faster you push the bullet the better the accuracy. I have had other guns that shot their best with a load below the suggested starting load. Some time changeing the primer will make a big difference, but most of the time no difference. Some guns will shoot about any thing and others will shoot their best with only 1 load. Try different bullets, that usually makes a difference. ! bullet might shoot best fast and another slow. Just keep working with and shoot what shoots best.

Offline Lone Star

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 04:43:56 PM »
IMR4198 is the second-fastest of the IMR powders and in no way needs a magnum primer.  I have used that propellant for 35 years in various .45-70s and standard primers work fine even at zero F.  According to Lyman data, all your loads are over max with 405-grain lead bullets for the Marlin.  Since Lyman publishes more pressure-tested cast bullet data than about anyone, maybe you should follow their advice if you want good results.

Use standard primers and try again with a load below maximum. Lyman's maximum (40.5 grains) is still over 1700 fps - that is plenty of power even for grizzleys.   I shot a beautiful 8-1/2 foot brownie on Baranof Island with a single 350 Hornady at ~1900 fps and about the same energy your 425 has at 1700 fps.  If your rifle has MicroGroove rifling then that's about as fast as you're going to get with decent accuracy anyway.  Those bullets may be too soft to push much harder even in Marlin's "Ballard" rifling.  How much lead did you mine out of the bore when you cleaned the rifle?  If the rifle is ported, lead buildup in the ports could effect accuracy.





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Offline torpedoman

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 05:38:21 PM »
I develop with groups in 1/2 gr steps when i find the best groups i'll load up and down from that in 1/10 grain to find the best group all shooting done off a lead sled it is a p.i.a. but you'll find that sone guns dont like a 1/4 gr change. on a perfect day with a perfect load my handi 223 shot a 5 shot group  that measured .392 on the calipers and nets a 169thous. group now if i could just do that without the lead sled.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 12:10:58 AM »
 I also like to have accuracy first, then check the velocities. But velocity is definitely secondary. I also prefer to choose a heavy for caliber bullet. Energy & accuracy over velocity.
  I am a firm believer in heavier bullet weight and larger diameter calibers. I have never subscribed to Roy Weatherbys Ultra lite bullets @ hi velocity conquers all theory, I'll take a large diameter, heavy for caliber bullet. If a short range/pistol caliber, I also want a large meplat. Then I work towards acceptable accuracy. Lastly I chronograph for the velocities.

CW
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 12:20:20 AM »
I agree on the primers. Ive allways had best results with a standard primer and 4198. I will use mag primers if im loading ball powder in a big case like the 4570 though. Even when using standard primers you can see groups cut in half by trying a couple different brands of primers.
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Offline AK737FO

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 06:37:30 AM »
Thanks for the info guys.  To answer a few of the questions - My rifle is Ballard rifling, I'm shooting Lead Heads hard cast (20 to 22 BH) 420 WFNGC.  I had virtually no leading after 20 test rounds. 

I loaded another 20 rounds last night.  I wish I would have read all yall's input first since I loaded with Mag primers again.  I loaded 40, 41, 42, 43 and 44 grains.  We will see how these go.  If I find a good group in there, then I will try it with standard primers and see if it makes a difference.  I've never used a chrono, so I won't be testing the speed.  I'm just looking for accuracy with higher end loads so I know that the power I want it there.

Thanks to your input, I will take along a rod or a bore snake and run the barrel in between groups. 

Offline DKA

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Re: Accuracy VS Power - finding the sweet spot.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 06:22:02 AM »
Accuracy come first, then everything else follows. My motto is if you can't hit it properly, you can't kill it properly.
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