Loading .44 Mag with buckshot

[LoudBoomBoom]

I have started development of buckshot loads for the .44 revolver.  So far, I have evaluated several brands of brass cases, single 'ought' versus double 'ought' versus triple 'ought', different lead alloys, velocities, terminal ballistics, etc. 

I am pleased with the results so far, but, and this is where I need your help... I would love more 'input'...

1 - Are there any threads, forums, etc. already established that discuss this subject (I didn't find them)?

2 - If there are no such established threads or forums, can anyone suggest other sources of info?

3 - Is there any interest out there in these types of loads?

Maybe it's just me, but I can see how a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special loaded with some '00' buckshot rounds (three .32 caliber projectiles per round) might be an interesting option under certain scenarios.

Anyway, I value the collective knowledge and experience of this group, and hope to learn from it.

Thanks

 

[Savage]

Here's my reply I posted to this thread in your thread in the General Handguns forum.

I guess everyone who's reloaded for any length of time has experimented with multi projectile loads. Don't recall many specifics as it was around 40 yrs ago. What I do remember is, at 5 yds and closer they worked pretty well as far as hits on target. Accuracy went away quickly as range increased. Leading was also a problem.after a few shots. I loaded the round balls in .357 and .45 Colt cases with a thin cardboard wad between the balls over a charge of Unique. Even so, they deformed badly during firing. I hung a blanket on a line between two trees and fired into it to recover the balls without impact damage. Out of the "Judge" buckshot probably fares a little better due to the shot cup in the .410 shells. I also played with two bullets in the same case with a little better results. Be very careful, and weigh all the projectiles and wads so that you'll have the total projectile weight when working up your loads. BE VERY CAREFUL! There are lots of variables here that effect pressures. Good luck!
Savage

[LoudBoomBoom]

My results generally agree with yours... with one significant difference.

Because I use the Speer shot capsules, so far I have no discernible leading or unexpected issues with pellet deformity.

I consider safety to be my load development priority and echo your concerns.

Thanks

[jedman]

LBB,   With the short length of the 44 mag casing and short length of a revolvers cylinder, I don't see a lot of potential there. I load 3  .400 dia. lead balls in a 2 1/2" 410 shell and out of a 410 shotgun barrel with zero choke it keeps the 3 balls in a 3 to 4 inch group at 30 feet and really hits with some power and penetration.
With a 44 mag ,  I don't see a practical way to hold 3 buckshot pellets together and hold them in your brass without some sort of sabot ?
If I was going to try a multi pellet / ball load in a 44, I would try possibly 2 muzzleloader balls held together in a paper tube made by rolling the 2 balls with a strip of paper and glued, like a paper patch.
If you could get the tube close to normal bullet diameter you might have room to load that on top of a light powder charge and possibly get a light crimp just over the center of the top ball to hold it all together.
   Jed

[Savage]

The shot capsules do prevent leading, but the stacked pellets are still going to deform significantly. Probably makes no difference at usable ranges tho.
Savage

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi JedMan

Thanks for your reply.

The points you make are indeed logical and well thought through... that's one of the things I like about these forums and the people in them.

For the sake of brevity I did not really explain much about it - I figured I could go into details with those that would be interested and not bore others.

As you correctly pointed out, the mechanics of holding the three pellets in a .44 case would be rather cumbersome "without some sort of sabot".  I am using Speer .44 shot capsules, in fact, the same ones sold commercially, and often referred to as 'rat shot'.  Instead of holding a bunch of #9 shot, they hold 3 single-ought or double-ought buckshot pellets.

I have worked up the loads for safety, and then optimized for velocity/energy and pattern.  Now, these do have a particular optimum performance envelope which, within its limits, may satisfy a variety of needs.

When that envelope is understood, and its limitations are factored in to its intended
terminal ballistics, then it becomes, at least to me, very useful to deploy these rounds.

Now, don't forget these are no longer just an idea or concept... I have already made and tested many of these and what I am now looking for is other shooters' questions, ideas, etc. to help me continue to reshape and refine my own.

So far, only you and Savage have contributed but both of you have given me 'food for thought'

Thank you.

By the way, Savage, you are right... a  key element of that envelope is "usable range" and a certain level of pellet deformation is expected, and accounted for - Thanks

[jedman]

LBB,  When I posted my response to your idea,  I didn't know you were using the Speer capsules or that they were available to handloaders. They are probably your best bet to contain buckshot to shoot out of a revolver.
When I was much younger and first started reloading, I toyed with many ideas of multi-shot loads in rifles , shotguns and muzzleloaders, never with handguns.
One such experiment that I remember as being DEVASTATING was I used to take a piece of 7 strand  stainless steel fishing leader materiial about 12 " long and crimp on as many 1/4" dia. split shot sinkers as I could pack into a 12 ga. shell with just a card wad over the powder charge.
Lets just say I used them for close range varmits and for that they are DEVASTATING !!
Have fun and stay safe !!          Jed

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi JedMan

I have heard that some similar was used in Vietnam on the VC.  I don't know the details but I had also heard that these, and flechettes both, were 'banned' in the US (maybe elsewhere too, I don't know).

Now, the Speer shot capsules do address managing the issues of leading, velocity, pattern control, and reducing the amount of labor involved in the assembly of the load.  All these translate into a better, cheaper, load, and less arduous gun cleaning after.

I just received two boxes of capsules (50) I had ordered from Natchez and those will be used to continue to refine the load until I am satisfied I can't improve on it any further.

But, because I do this as my time allows, it takes a while to reach results,and that's OK... I am old enough to have learned that haste and safe seldom go together, and NEVER when reloading.

Thanks for your post.

[SHOOTALL]

You might try a buck and ball load . powder , paper card , a couple/few copper plated buck and a light bullet . The buck can be #4 up or #2 birdshot or larger .
The card can be cut by reaming an old case and tapping or pushing it thru. the material you use for a card .
 Seems it was a standard load in black powder guns and even in the M-14 and AR's have multi projo loads .

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi ShootAll

If I understand correctly, then...

1 - I would crimp on the bullet portion of the load.

2 - Because the largest buckshot pellet I'm aware of is '000' (nominally, .36"), then this pellet would have about .069" of freebore play to interact with the rifling, basically tumbling its way out.

3 - Because the copper-plating available on buckshot is much thinner than the depth of the rifling groove, then some of that plating will be left behind as it is sheared off by the leading edges of the lands.

4 - Because of #3 above, some of the lead underneath the plating will be exposed to the rifling.

5 - Because of #2 above, even though the paper card may seal in the powder behind the pellet while in an unignited condition, as soon as there is enough gas pressure from the ignited powder, the edges of the card will fold around the contour of the curvature of the pellet, flow past the card, and flow past the loose pellet(s) as a sort of plasma jet, softening the plating, the lead underneath it, possibbly heating it enough to allow sublimation of the lead.

So, if the preeceding is correct (and I don't know enough to be 100% sure that it is), I would achieve inconsistent paterns because of the tumbling of the pellets and their deformation, increased copper and lead fouling, increased erosive wear of the bore, and higher than normal release of lead vapors into the atmosphere.

Of course, since I could be wrong about all this, then, please, tell me a little more, because the idea does seem to have potential... Would a stiffer card/wad help? What about two, or three, short bullets, with the bottom one having a gas check or jacket?

I love this board... the people, you guys, make me think...

Thanks

[SHOOTALL]

as far as all you say the Judge 45/410 would seem to prove the non issue of it .
the card would be to maintain the powder in the proper location for ignition .
 Pattern would be a non issue past 10 yards for me really if the bullet was true the buck would be gravy . In a crowd a real plus .
Also you can get copper plated round balls if you want larger shot . The coating i would think would be close to Rainer bullets or Win. copper clad bullets no not a jacket but better than nothing really.
Yep i would use a light ( short bullet ) to have room in the case and crimp it . If you only use buckshot and crimp over the buck you would not have buck and ball .
I think maybe BBB's would do well in a load as I have seen them go slam thru. both goose and turkeys at 40 yards . They leave a shotgun at 1200 FPS , with a light load in a 44 or 45 you might get this .
If you go with a 45 Colt you could cut down 410 hulls and go that way . Maybe even use a shot cup to protect steel rifling from lead shot if that is an issue .
 To me these are last ditch self defense loads aginst soft skin attackers plain and simple . No sporting use , not bear stoppers . But across a room they could be just the ticket . Maybe the first or second round in a 6 shooter for that fast first couple  shots with the heavy stuff as back up.
 

[Graybeard]

You might try some buffer in the capsule with the buckshot to prevent deformation or ya might try some small birdshot like #9 or #10 instead. It might help buffer and would give additional projectiles to do damage to whatever itis you plan to shoot with them.

[SHOOTALL]

That would let it be a snake load also , 

[LoudBoomBoom]

Wow!...

OK, first, ShootAll... I have not done ANY testing yet with anything other than the Speer capsules.

My intention is to develop along a specific path, while, at the same time, learning about other potential options.

Developing for the Speer capsules comes first; that will get my feet wet and likely produce a decent level of performance.  Then I would try using ML balls, bullet with ball(s), 3-section bullets (I have used 3-section frangibles and they are IMPRESSIVE). I already produce on my lathe high-performance  all-copper bullets for a specific custom caliber.  Producing a 3-section copper round would be a no-brainer.  But because that last option would really be the most labor-intensive for me, and least cost-justifiable, it must remain as a last resort.  I am developing without a particular target type in mind;  I am developing the best multiple-projectile round I can for the .44 revolver.  Once I have done that, its characteristics will tell what it is best suited for, be it a side-arm load while rifle or shotgun hunting, a bedside gun, a CCW backup, yard, garden, or barn varmint control, or busting clays with a revolver at short range just for fun; time will tell.  Right now this is just pure research for me.

Now, Graybeard... actually, the first ones I made I used buffer in the capsule... I have now tested with two different kinds of buffer, and without buffer.  The clearance between the inner wall of the capsule and the diameter of the buckshot is so small that even buffer has a hard time getting by.  As far as using small shot to fill the empty space, I have found that even going down to #12 ( the tiniest I could get) it was still too big to pour in, so I would have to put in just a few at a time, accommodate them individually and then put the next pellet in, and if that pellet didn't land in there just perfectly, I'd have to pull the whole mess out and start again from scratch.  Still, I did it, and testing showed no improvememt in pattern quality, so I stopped using buffer and sub-size shot.

I believe I will be able to define a performance envelope that someone will find interesting and useful; albeit a compromise between range, velocity, energy, recoil, cleaning requirements, and environmental concerns.  Yes, I believe I can have my cake and eat it too, if I observe the limitations of the intended use(s).

I like the .44 and think it should be viewed as a very flexible platform, not just a "hand cannon".  Just like I love being able to load and shoot saboted .22 Varmint Grenade type bullets out of a 30-06 at over 3000 fps ( a la Remington Accelerators), or big and slow 220 gr. Nosler Partition type bullets, and anything in-between.  In fact, there are these guys in South Africa that make some of the most awesome bullets I have ever tried (http://gscustom.co.za/).  They knew they could create something better if they used a little imagination and some elbow grease... they went outside the box and they succeeded.  You might still find some right here in the US (bpettet@gci.net).

Anyway, that was kind of long-winded, but the bottom line is this:  Keep those ideas coming.
I appreciate them.

Thanks

[Tommyt]

 
If you could roll or pound Lead thin enough and Like rolling a Cigarette roll your buck shot in the capsule
With that in mind I wonder if you could find Copper that thin and roll your own
Literally

In my mind I'm imagining a folded lead or copper top
How bout one capsule full and invert another capsule
Now please keep in mind I have never fooled with these capsules
Tommyt

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi Tommyt,

Maybe I'm a little slow but I can't visualize what you are trying to convey to me...

Am I wrapping the buckshot with a thin sheet of lead, or copper, folding the ends so the buckshot doesn't just fall out and then fire it?... Someone might say it sounds like some kind of killer 'joint'!

The capsules are a cylindrical plastic container pre-scored on one end and open on the other.  After you put in the desired shot, a little plastic cap plugs the open end of the capsule, closing it.  The capsule is then seated into the charged case with the plastic caps resting on the powder and the case is crimped.  This prevents the shot from falling out and the plastic cap, being slightly larger diametrically than the capsule, acts as a gas check/wad.  The capsules are caliber-specific and will not fit more than one in the intended case.  Having said that, however, I've heard that some folks have used 2 capsules in one large- capacity rifle case (.458 Winchester, if I recall correctly).

Below is a picture I just took of basic items involved:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39799935@N06/3849365925/

I hope that helps explain it better.

Thanks

[LoudBoomBoom]

By the way,

Although targeting a slightly different audience, I have a parallel thread running on  "Handgun Forums > Handgun General Discussion" right here on GBO.

There have been some interesting things said there too. Check it out.

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi everybody,

Today, I finally got around to chronographing the '00' shot loads in the .44 and the 'hotter' loads came in at about 1150 fps MV (well, actually at about 5 feet from the muzzle).  This is in keeping with Speer's recommendation of not exceeding 1200 fps with their capsules (to avoid plastic fouling?... maybe, I don't know).  Energy-wise this equates to 150 ft/lbs ME per pellet.

To put this in a different perspective...

Imagine you have a Czech Skorpion SA Vz 61 (.32 ACP smg) set up for three-round bursts; ballistically, this is sort of like that... three projectiles of comparable size, mass, velocity, and energy, delivered in close proximity to each other, within the same fraction-of-a-second timing. And still have the ability to ALSO shoot snake-shot on the low power end, AND full-house hunting loads on the high power end, from the same firearm, without modifications, just by changing rounds.

The next step is to start moving the chronograph further away incrementally and plot the results in a graph. This will help further define the performance envelope.

Anyway, just wanted to do an update.

Thanks
 

[Savage]

Don't move the chronograph much further from the muzzle unless you have a spare one! 

Savage

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi Savage,

I already got bit by that dog... lesson learned!

A stray hit my first chronograph and smoked it, so, for this one, before using it, I built a steel cage with a 2" ballistic plexiglas front and a 2" styrofoam "shock absorber" behind it.  While this won't survive a direct hit from an RPG, it should survive whatever I'm likely to throw at it, and, at worse, only requiring a replacement of the plexiglas; way cheaper than a new chronograph.

And the physics of it all tells me that as the distance increases the pattern will open up, guaranteeing it WILL get hit, but the energy will be inversely proportional to the distance so, as the risk increases, the potential damage decreases.

Thanks for being alert and pointing that out.  If I had overlooked it, it could have been costly.

Thanks again

[Savage]

Hey, LBB.
Just looking out for ya man! Assuming any slope at all on your "Ballistic Plexiglas" doubt that a .32 pellet would have enough energy to defeat it. Even at 15'. Haven't shot a chronograph yet, but rumor has it, a couple of sky screens have been casualties of some early sessions. That was back in the 70s when chronographs were a bit on the spendy side.
Savage