Author Topic: 454 Casull Primer (Read 2989 times)

benny123 · « **on:** August 24, 2009, 02:43:49 PM »

Today I bought reloading equipment. Read the issues on GBO 'bout certain powders being better when loaded close to the max, which are suitable for lower-recoil, and why magnum primers are better than rifle primers. This definitely gave me more confidence in my buying the right equipment.

Per the FA site, HS6 powder seemed like a good powder choice for lower recoil. But I struggled finding primers. I did eventually find some locally but I am not sure if they're right.

Excuse the ignorance but should they be small magnum pistol primers? I didn't know if small referred to the physical size or the charge. They are Remington (5 1/2 Small Mag Pistol Primers)

cwlongshot · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2009, 02:46:23 PM »

I don't load 454 cases light, but I only use small rifle magnum primers in mine.

I use 45Colt brass and large pistol primers in it for lite loads.

CW

benny123 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2009, 02:53:39 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on August 24, 2009, 02:46:23 PM

I don't load 454 cases light, but I only use small rifle magnum primers in mine.

I use 45Colt brass and large pistol primers in it for lite loads.

CW

OK. Yeah, I am loading this way because i have to. I have found two factory loads (Magtech 225gr SCHP& Win 250 SuperX) that are easier for me to handle. Though I no longer fear the shots i still flinch a bit pre-shot. Figure handloading and progressively increasing the load, to spec, will increase my comfort level

cwlongshot · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2009, 02:55:33 PM »

Understood, this is fine. But have you thought about using 45LC cases instead?

CW

benny123 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2009, 03:14:38 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on August 24, 2009, 02:55:33 PM

Understood, this is fine. But have you thought about using 45LC cases instead?

CW

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. When I first got the gun I posted my experiences on this board (you'll find it under my handle benny123). The primary issue was "sticking cartridges". i hadn't realized it but there was a etch in the cylinder wall that impacted ejection of the 454 cartridges. Apparently, it was due to shooting 45LC cartridges. Whether it was from my use or the previous owner was unclear but I will definitely not shoot 45LC in the 454 cylinder again. I almost shipped the gun to FA for a fitted 45 Colt cylinder but instead opted to invest in reloading equipment which would reduce the constraints of 454 factory ammunition--which for the most part doesn't feel like the sort one uses for target practice

One of my reasons for taking up reloading was to customize the loads. Finding something I could tolerate, then ramp up. There is also the satisfaction in knowing how to handload. Think it'll make me appreciate the firearm more.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #5 on:** August 24, 2009, 03:39:13 PM »

The 454 Casull cases are supposed to be loaded with small rifle primers. The reason is that SAMI specs for the 454 Casull allow pressure up to 65,000 psi. If you're loading at lower pressures, using small pistol primers shouldn't be a problem but be aware that if you load too light with the wrong powder (such as H110/Win. 296), you could get a hang fire or high pressure signs, believe it or not.

benny123 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 24, 2009, 04:08:02 PM »

Quote from: Grumulkin on August 24, 2009, 03:39:13 PM

The 454 Casull cases are supposed to be loaded with small rifle primers. The reason is that SAMI specs for the 454 Casull allow pressure up to 65,000 psi. If you're loading at lower pressures, using small pistol primers shouldn't be a problem but be aware that if you load too light with the wrong powder (such as H110/Win. 296), you could get a hang fire or high pressure signs, believe it or not.

Funny how a light load can be more dangerous than a heavy load. It took a while to locate a powder that was light load friendly. I knew which ones to avoid based on the posts and the FA chart helped to compare powder weight/pressure/velocity but I really had to rely on others expertise not knowing how these powders--or primers for that matter--really differ from each other.

Do you have a way of knowing when to use magnum primers--say within 10% of the max. load for that specific powder or is it just from experience?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:37:50 AM »

Quote from: benny123 link=topic=181104.msg 1098877967#msg 1098877967 date=1251162878

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. When I first got the gun I posted my experiences on this board (you'll find it under my handle benny123). The primary issue was "sticking cartridges". i hadn't realized it but there was a etch in the cylinder wall that impacted ejection of the 454 cartridges. Apparently, it was due to shooting 45LC cartridges. Whether it was from my use or the previous owner was unclear but I will definitely not shoot 45LC in the 454 cylinder again. I almost shipped the gun to FA for a fitted 45 Colt cylinder but instead opted to invest in reloading equipment which would reduce the constraints of 454 factory ammunition--which for the most part doesn't feel like the sort one uses for target practice

One of my reasons for taking up reloading was to customize the loads. Finding something I could tolerate, then ramp up. There is also the satisfaction in knowing how to hand load. Think it'll make me appreciate the firearm more.

I understand. I have herd this bunk before. believe me its just that. If you CLEAN your guns, there is no way frying a shorter, lower pressure cartridge will ever hurt your chambers. Your problems came from the PO neglecting his firearms. I have shot countless tens of thousands of 22shorts in LR chambers, 38's in 357's, 357's in 357 maxis 44 spls in 44 mags and ... now don't loose me here, 45Colts in 454 cassulls.

NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OF THEM!

I understand your decision. It will eliminate any chance of this happening again. BUT you have now discovered the limitations of what you want to do...

Good luck,
CW

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:44:44 AM »

That's bad advice there CW. He happens to be one of those individuals who has a gun already damaged by it. I agree it usually doesn't happen but never say never about such things. It can and does happen. Just as some powders can erode forcing cones so can they damage a super tight tolerance gun like a Freedom Arms. In a Ruger or S&W you're likely right but in an FA83 in .454 Casull it can and will happen at times.

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2009, 01:44:57 AM »

Right on, Graybeard. This subject has been well milked. On the topic of primers, the .454 case is designed to use small rifle primers. The original loading data that I got from FA about 20 years ago called for Remington 7 1/2 Small Rifle Benchrest primers, and after a bit of testing with others, the 7 1/2's appeared to have a slight velocity and accuracy edge. That's what I've used ever since. On the other hand, I never use what one would call really "light" loads in a .454...with the lightest being a 300 @~ 1350 fps from a 6" barrel, but I see no need to use any other primer. A strong primer such as the 7 1/2 won't hurt in this instance.

Axehandle · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:11:51 AM »

Make note of the fact that the small pistol and small rifle primer and primer pocket measure the same... Unlike the large rifle and large pistol. The LR primer pocket is deeper than a LP primer pocket and the LR primer is taller to properly fill the hole...

Grumulkin · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2009, 03:00:15 AM »

Small rifle and small rifle magnum primers can be used interchangeably. My guide would be which one gave the best accuracy.

As for the shooting 45 LC loads in a Freedom Arms Model 83 chambered for 454 Casull, there are some unique factors to consider.

Single and double action revolvers chambered for high pressure cartridges like the 454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum don't have as much mechanical advantage in ejecting cases that an Encore does. If you have shot a S&W Revolver chambered for 460 S&W Magnum, you will know that ejecting the spent cases becomes difficult well below what should be maximum loads. The Freedom Arms revolvers get around this problem by having precise highly polished chambers. It doesn't take very much powder residue or erosion for ejection of spent cases to become very difficult with full house 454 Casull loads. The situation is entirely different than shooting short cases with low pressure loads (i.e., 38 Special/357 Magnum, 44 Special/44 Magnum, etc.) or in a firearm with a lot of mechanic advantage in ejecting or extracting cases such as an Encore.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2009, 08:57:07 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard link=topic=181104.msg 1098878176#msg 1098878176 date=1251197084

That's bad advice there CW. He happens to be one of those individuals who has a gun already damaged by it. I agree it usually doesn't happen but never say never about such things. It can and does happen. Just as some powders can erode forcing cones so can they damage a super tight tolerance gun like a Freedom Arms. In a Ruger or S&W you're likely right but in an FA83 in .454 Casull it can and will happen at times.

Bill, believe me, I understand what Benny has been written. I understand the problem existed before he bought the revolver. I have dealt with many many THOUSANDS of firearms and there problems. I have been around this topic for many years. I still remain firm, this is a COMPLETELY avoidable situation. Its human nature to blame the item. While most of the time the problem is OPERATOR error. This too is a OPERATOR error. SA rev cylinders are very easily removed to allow a short soaking followed by a stiff BF brushing.

Those tight tolerance, of the polished FA chambers work FOR you. IF you clean them properly. Yes, the crud ring will form at the cases mouth. But will be easily cleaned if not allowed to build up. The long colt doesn't operate at the pressures required to erode the chambers. Even with "Ruger" level loads, it simply doesn't have the "power". Crud rings, YES, actual metal removal NO.

Benny,
Reduced loads in this caliber are not recommended because its not how it was designed. Its an offspring of hot loaded 45 colts. Loading the 45 colt light meets the "lite" load needs perfectly. If you do not want to do this in your cylinder because of existing problems. I suggest you send it off for a 45 colt cylinder. I also recommend you include the 454 cylinder. Explaining the past problems.

Good luck,
CW

BigMuddy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2009, 11:48:51 AM »

Benny

To try to answer your original question...

The "small" does refer to the size, and as Axe said the pistol and rifle primers are the same size. The "magnum" just means that they fire hotter. (Maybe a harder cup too depending on brand) I am certain that your small magnum pistol primers will work with the HS6 powder, meaning they will shoot. How well they shoot is something you would have to try. I cannot speak from experience as like others I have not used anything but small rifle primers in mine. I always use the Remington 7 1/2 just like Ken does. As was mentioned the main reason for the small rifle primer in the 454 is due to the pressure created, and the loads with HS6 are not going to get that high. That Rem 7 1/2 is also a very consistent performer for me, even with lighter loads.

I have not used the HS6 powder, but like you I have read about it and it seems like a good one for what you are intending to do. I applaud you too for wanting to shoot lighter loads to build up your confidence with your gun. Personally I have used Win 231 for lighter loads in Casull cases and have had good luck with them. Another favorite for more "medium" loads is H4227. I have a load with that powder and the Hornady 250 gr XTP that pretty well duplicates the Winchester factory load with that same bullet. It shoots well and is quite mild in the '83. My load shoots 1275 fps from my 7 1/2" gun. In reality that load alone will handle any chores here in Missouri. I have not tried HS6 only because no one around here carries it.

Trust me when I say you definitely can get some good and accurate loads that will be 45 Colt level in your 454 cases. If you do at some point decide to get a new cylinder for your gun, and were it me, I would get a new 454 to replace the one already damaged, and use the damaged one for 45 Colt ammo. Just a thought.

Good luck and enjoy that gun!!!

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** August 25, 2009, 11:59:15 AM »

I started out using CCI BR4 bench rest primers in my .454 Casull loads and they worked so well I never saw a need to change. It's the ONLY primer I've ever loaded a .454 round with. They are getting hard to find and these days are almost double the cost of the standard CCI SR primer so if I were still shooting the .454 I'd likely make the switch to the less costly primer instead.

When the manufacturer who knows his guns better than anyone else tells you it's not safe to use the shorter .45 Colt rounds in an FA83 you'd be wise to listen up. Bob's a pretty knowledgeable guy and knows his guns inside out. Those in the know on FA guns realize it ain't fiction but fact.

benny123 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 25, 2009, 07:33:43 PM »

thanks for all the responses, though, i felt like I needlessly opened up Pandora's box. I have been so used to going to this site and doing a keyword search for what i needed that I hadn't realized that a simple google web search would detail the primer differences without me addressing at GBO. I just liked the fact that everyone seems like a veteran here and is passionate about doin' things right. That being said,it feels like a natural gathering place to discuss anything firearm related.

Bob Baker · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2009, 10:44:55 AM »

cwlongshot, I have been around a gun or two also. You are right when saying the problem is avoidable. Just use the correct cartridge for the chamber and problem is solved.

The ring of residue can be cleaned out but where the problem comes in is the occasional etching underneath. Most cylinders that are ruined come from areas with high humidity. The moisture mixes with the lead and powder residue creating an acid which etches the chamber. Sometimes it is bad enough we can't polish it out.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2009, 11:47:52 AM »

Quote from: Bob Baker link=topic=181104.msg 1098879207#msg 1098879207 date=1251319495

cwlongshot, I have been around a gun or two also. You are right when saying the problem is avoidable. Just use the correct cartridge for the chamber and problem is solved.

The ring of residue can be cleaned out but where the problem comes in is the occasional etching underneath. Most cylinders that are ruined come from areas with high humidity. The moisture mixes with the lead and powder residue creating an acid which etches the chamber. Sometimes it is bad enough we can't polish it out.

I agree, at least with the premise of your statement. BUT, when this residue is PROMPTLY cleaned, there will be no damage. I DO IT ALL THE TIME!!! Again, and with all due respect, this is one of those things where people in general will not "fess up" to the responsibility that they actually cause many of these things they complain to the manufacturers for/about.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #18 on:** August 27, 2009, 12:42:46 AM »

if i had to pick one primer for the 454 it would be the ww small rifle primer. Its given me the overall best accuracy in a multiple 454s over the years.

v-man · « **Reply #19 on:** August 27, 2009, 01:06:59 AM »

I ran a few tests with my SRH .454 2 years ago. Using mid-range loads I found no difference going from SP to SP magnum to SR. In the max or near max loads with H110 and 2400 I got a little more velocity using the SP magnum and the SR than with the standard SP. I never found any difference in accuracy. I could never tell any difference in the SP magnum or the SR.

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2009, 01:25:04 AM »

Pistol primers small or large are not intended for the kinda pressure max loads in a .454 generate.

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #21 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:26:55 AM »

Like I said...the .454 was designed to use small rifle primers. Axe, external dimensions aren't the issue. There was even a time when Dick Casull sleeved primer pockets (which were sized for large pistol) to use small rifle primers in experiments to determine the optimum.
But Graybeard, some folks are going to do whatever they're going to do, good advice to the contrary. Small charges of 296, regular primers with ball powders, .45 Colt, Cowboy, or Schofield in .454 chambers, whatever. Let 'er rip, boys...I just hope you don't have to complain later and ask questions about poor results on some Internet forum.