Cannons Online

[AnarchyPrep]

Thinking about joining a reenactment group and know that my hodge-podge of cannons will not meet the stringent requirements of construction and authentic replication required by N-SSA.  Have reviewed several replica builders and wondered if anyone had any experience with Cannons ONline.  They have a very nice mountain howitzer that I am interested in.

[cannonmn]

As I'd advise with any cannonmaker you don't know, be sure to reduce the agreement on cost, schedule, and exactly what is to be delivered, to writing, a contract.  The maker you mention is local and I hear various things, and I'm not even sure what I mean by that.  All restoration work I have done has a dually-signed contract covering the performance of the job.  I learned the hard way, but it only took two instances of "misunderstanding" to teach me.  If they won't sign a contract go somewhere else.  Be prepared to give a downpayment, many will want that, and it helps the legal position of having a valid contract.

Obviously if they have ready-made items on the shelf you can just inspect and buy there, no need for that much caution.

I'm not a lawyer but this is the kind of advice they've given me in the past.

[artillerybuff]

Great advice Cannonmn!!!

My unit purchased two No. 1 Carriages, one 12 Pdr. Field Howitzer Barrel, one Limber, and one 24 Pdr. Bronze Coehorn Mortar from Forrest Taylor (owner of Cannonsonline) back in 2003.  They were well made, and with the exception of the Field Howitzer barrel are still in our inventory.  However, I have been unable to reach Forrest by phone or email for a couple of years now and am surprised to hear he is still in operation.  I too was going to add a Mountain Howitzer to our Battery and ended up going elsewhere because they would not return my calls.

If you PM me I can give you some additional recommendations for carriages & barrels from other makers that I have used and am VERY happy with and save you some $$.

Also, if you plan to shoot fixed ammunition (i.e. ball, sabot & powder) then the original 3.4" diameter chamber size is okay.  But if you ever plan to shoot blanks I would strongly recommend reducing the chamber to 2.5".  This will give you a longer skinnier blank for more reliable loading as well as significantly beef up the breech of the barrel.  The 3.4" rounds will tumble down the bore...

Be well~   Anthony
www.batteryd.net

[artillerybuff]

One other thing AnarchyPrep:
Be sure the reenacting organization in your area allows the use of Mountain Howitzers at it's events.  Most do not allow anything less than full sized field artillery.  A lot of people start out with a MH due to the lower cost only to find out they cannot use it 95% of the time.

Also, if you plan to live fire I would stay away from 12 lb. shot, the carriage cannot stand up to it as the overall weight of the barrel & carriage is too light.  I saw two MH carriages break earlier this year from firing 12 lb. shot with 8 ounces of cannon grade powder.  You need to use 7 or 8 lb. shells or possibly solid aluminum balls.  Another alternative could be using 2.7 lb. candlepin bowling balls with a 1/2 charge of powder.  You can pick those up for very little money and they are pretty tough.

Anthony

[intoodeep]

I saw two MH carriages break earlier this year from firing 12 lb. shot with 8 ounces of cannon grade powder.  You need to use 7 or 8 lb. shells or possibly solid aluminum balls.  Another alternative could be using 2.7 lb. candlepin bowling balls with a 1/2 charge of powder.  You can pick those up for very little money and they are pretty tough.

Anthony

 I'm curious, were either one of these at a shoot in CA. earlier this year? That same load sound like one in AZ that broke the trail.

[Evil Dog]

If it was at the ACWS shoot last Jan I was there and saw them both pretty close up.  Not exactly happy campers.

[cannonmn]

If it was at the ACWS shoot last Jan I was there and saw them both pretty close up.  Not exactly happy campers.

Were the trails in good condition and made of seasoned white oak, or did someone try and get by with pine, red oak, or something else with less strength than aged white oak?

[intoodeep]

Were the trails in good condition and made of seasoned white oak, or did someone try and get by with pine, red oak, or something else with less strength than aged white oak?

 If it's one of the ones I thinking of. It was made from Mesquite wood.

[cannonmn]

I'd recommend shellbark hickory next time, see column beginning with "impact" in table linked below.  I don't have numbers for mesquite.

http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/strength_table.htm

[cannonmn]

I found some comparisons with mesquite for bending strength.  That property is low, similar to cottonwod but even lower than red oak.

The owners might have selected mesquite because it is very hard, but that individual property shouldn't be confused with strength, where mesquite is low.

http://txforestservice.tamu.edu/uploadedFiles/Sustainable/woodtec/The%20Wood%20Properties%20of%20Mesquite%20pdf.pdf

[artillerybuff]

Yes to all of the above.

Mesquite is way too brittle as we all found out the hard way.  One did break the trail, but the second one bent the steel axle, both on the first shot.

It was also noted that even with full service loads and 3.5 degrees of elevation the rounds fell a hundred yards short of the 600 yard target.  Solid shot will not work from a Mountain Howitzer at ranges it is expected to be able to shoot, they are way too heavy.  This is why I recommended shell or other lighter weight alternatives.

The object was to find a wood that would hold up to the harsh dry heat of the So Cal & Arizona Desert.  White Oak (dried to 8%) does not hold up well at all, shrinking & checking within ONE season here.  Wheels get loose fast as well, very disheartening.  Mesquite has zero dimensional change, does not crack or shrink etc.  Only problem is it can only be used for blanks or very light loads.

The only solution I have come up with so far to keep our carriages, limbers, and caisson from disintegrating in rapid fashion is to store them in a large building out of the sun covered with tarps with water misters running overhead from the rafters during the hot summer months to keep the temp down and the humidity up.  The only time they come out is to use them for an event then right back into storage.  It has helped…

Thanks~   Anthony

[cannonmn]

Interesting-I think if I had that many problems with wood I'd make the carriage out of bent and welded steel plates, so the outside appearance would be similar to the original, and who would know or care that it was a different material but the owner?

[artillerybuff]

I agree, after it was painted it would be almost impossible to tell without rapping on it with your knuckles.  Only problem is the weight will more than double from approximately 1,000 lbs. for a No. 1 carriage to 2,150 lbs. or even heavier.  Add your barrel and there is another 900 lbs. give or take depending on the model and now you are up to around 3,000+ lbs. for a field piece.

There are a couple of companies making them now, but they are for year round outdoor display and not for live firing according to the makers.

So because of where we live (hot dry desert) we have to make do the best we can.  On the flip side we can shoot year round, and never have to fight snow, black ice, rusty cars, etc.

Anthony

[Cannoneer]

As for as the weight problem, if iron or steel were used, there are reproduction CW artillery manufacturers that make carriages out of high tensile strength aluminum; do any of the N-SSA people, or reenactors use these carriages for live fire?

If the Mt. Howitzer carriage's that cracked were accurate reproductions of the 1st model prairie carriage, then even if the white oak that was used to build them were of the highest quality known, the problems might have still occured. The step-down on the stock trail had a tendency to crack on the originals, which is the reason why the sturdier second model was developed.

[thelionspaw]

LAMINATE the wood to increase the strength.

[intoodeep]

If the Mt. Howitzer carriage's that cracked were accurate reproductions of the 1st model prairie carriage, then even if the white oak that was used to build them were of the highest quality known, the problems might have still occured. The step-down on the stock trail had a tendency to crack on the originals, which is the reason why the sturdier second model was developed.

 I believe that this trail was made about 2" thinner then the original. Also, when it was built it was sold with a tube that had a reduced bore.

[artillerybuff]

According to Steen and Paulson Brothers the metal carriages (steel or aluminum) cannot be used for live firing, I checked.  They are designed for year round outdoor display only.  Believe me, if they would work I would replace all of my carriages with them!  But my guns must be able to handle full service loads as I compete with them at long range.

Yes, a properly made laminate can be stronger than a single piece of wood if there are flaws in the wood fiber (knots for example).  A poorly made laminate is not.  It takes good joints, alternating direction of the wood grain, quality adhesive, and constant even pressure.  Simple clamps will not due, we are talking TONS of pressure.  I would much rather have a properly laminated trail than one made from a single piece of lumber.

My MH bent the axle on the very first shot.  Wheels & trail were on wood runners to ensure free recoil without digging into the ground.  As I said, 12 lb. solid shot is too heavy for a MH, no matter what it is made out of, even if it does not break it will not be competitive.  I am not guessing here, I know.  I have been live firing full size Civil War field artillery pieces for 10 years now using everything from lead, zinc & iron, in the form of ball, bolt, shell, and canister, using reduced loads all the way up to full service loads in both smooth bore and rifled bores from 2" up to 5.82" in diameter...

Anthony

[RocklockI]

funny  tracy was schooling me on the MH . that is exactly what he said ! that full loads and a 12 ball is too much .  and they thought the same thing , in the day .

tracy bent then trailer on the second shot from the beast .

i 'think' it would be a great shell lobber and canister gun .   everythings got a part to play ... might be interesting to see it capabilites if mounted on a seige gun type carriage in a defensive position .