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Author Topic: Contender in 45/70  (Read 862 times)

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Offline Stape

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Contender in 45/70
« on: October 28, 2009, 09:07:43 AM »
  Hey all,  looking at getting some use out of my 45/70 and not sure where to start.  First off, its a 12" (I think) with the factory brake on it.  I'm not recoil sensitive but I don't go looking for it for grins either.  What I'd like in the 45-70 is to be able to cast for it as I do for every other caliber I shoot.  Uses will be typical deer size game but would like a load thats a bit stepped up as so if I wanted to go after something bigger I could do that also without drastically changing the load.  Not looking for some 500 gr 1800 fps over-kill load but simply something that is tolerable, maybe comfortable given what it is, and simply gets the job done.  In all the reading I do, it seems some say the low level trapdoor loads are inadequate for anything much bigger than a deer, and others drive these things so fast it seems crazy.  All shots will be inside 100yds and I practice often and have no problem making well placed, responsible shots.  So, I'm thinking a 405gr cast doing 1300 or so fps.  Any experience out there hunting with this combo?  I'm comfortable with hot 44 mag loads from a light revolver and have shot the S&W 460 pretty well, so not looking for much past that limit.  What combos are out there and what have you used, and....how did it perform?   Thanks all.
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Offline Keith L

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 09:28:42 AM »
If loading for a Contender you will run into trouble if you exceed trapdoor levels when loading.  You will stretch your frame and then it will be junk.  If you need more then get an Encore.  The hotter 45-70 loads are for guns other than Contenders.
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 09:50:25 AM »
Agreed with Keith,
Watch your loads with a contender.  Use ONLY trap door level loads.  If you look in a Lyman load manual, you will see this warning written explicitly.  I believe Thompson Center also recommends only trap door level loads.
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 03:43:52 PM »
While what the others said above it certainly true, you can still get plenty of power out of your Contender without exceeding safe pressure levels.  Hodgdon's data shows the following maximum velocities out of a 15" barrel, you can expect 75-125 fps less in your 12" tube.

300 cast - 1530 fps @ 20,600 cup
385 cast - 1537 fps @ 21,800 cup
405 cast - 1453 fps @ 18,900 cup
485 cast - 1233 fpe @ 20,400 cup

Don't believe the naysayers who have never shot any game with the .45-70.  Any of the above loads will kill almost anything out to 100 yards - particularly if cast of soft alloy and/or of a broad flat meplat design.  Plenty of American Bison were killed with less-powerful loads.



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Offline Two Bears

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 09:42:34 PM »
Quote from: Keith L on October 28, 2009, 09:28:42 AM
If loading for a Contender you will run into trouble if you exceed trapdoor levels when loading.  You will stretch your frame and then it will be junk.  If you need more then get an Encore.  The hotter 45-70 loads are for guns other than Contenders.

How would you know if the frame is stretched?  What would you look for?
I am going to buy this same set up (used of course) and am now curious to know if there is something visual so I don't get stuck with a bad frame.
I don't mean to hijack this thread....

Thanks
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Offline Keith L

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 12:18:02 AM »
I have never stretched one (I play by the rules).  Guys?
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 12:45:04 AM »
I had an SSK before T/C started making them.  It was awesome and it never hurt my frame.
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 02:03:08 AM »
Also agree with Lonestar.  Even if you don't exceed trap door pressures, you can probably kill just about anything in north America with one of these things at a given distance.
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Offline Keith L

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 11:34:59 AM »
Quote from: Swampman on October 29, 2009, 12:45:04 AM
I had an SSK before T/C started making them.  It was awesome and it never hurt my frame.

And you exceeded trapdoor loads with it?  If so and you had no trouble you were lucky.
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 12:28:55 PM »
I stretched an early model frame (SN 58991) with high-pressure .35 Remington loads over twenty-five years ago.  If you looked carefully at the outside surfaces of the frame sides right where they joined the breech you could see a very slight thinning of the metal.  I sent the frame back to T/C and they sent a replacement frame in return mail.  Hard to beat that service, even though it was clearly my fault.

T/C strengthened the frame where mine failed in later production Contender models.  Of course the G2 is heavily reinforced at this point.  I don't know how you'd tell if a G2 was stretched.


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Offline Swampman

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 01:15:53 PM »
The 7mmTCU was very hard on frames.  The one I got for a buddy wouldn't fire because it was streched.  T/C replaced it for free.  IMO the .45-70 isn't likely to hurt a frame as long as SAMMI specs are observed.  They should never be ignored with any gun or cartridge.  Trapdoor loads will be all you can stand anyway on your end.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2009, 03:57:51 AM »
The 7 TCU is no harder on frames than any other brass based on the .223 case. It has the same internal case diameter, and at the same chamber pressure it will have the same case head thrust - which is the force that stretches frames.  You can certainly over-load it, and that is why a 7 TCU would stretch a frame.  Lots of IHMSA shooters over-loaded their 7 TCUs back in the day, trying to improve its performance on hard-set rams.  Some of my fellow shooters got two-shot case life with their 7TCUs! 

It is easier to damage a frame with a larger diameter case, that's why the Contender is not chambered to .308 WCF, which has the same SAAMI pressure as the .223 does - 52,000 cup.  The larger internal case diameter develops a much higher case head thrust.



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Offline MePlat

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Re: Contender in 45/70
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 08:05:32 AM »
SSK barrels have a longer throat in them.  Alows more powder for a given pressure that a no throat barrel like T/C's barrels.  JD Jones said the SSK barrels and frame will run at 28000 PSI and I believe him.  There is no reason why the T/C barrels and frames won't either.
Speer data is worked up in SAAMI spec test barrrel with minimum chamber specs and then fired in a Marlin LA rifle for velocity.  The loads are held at 28000 psi.
Recoil becomes an issue with most before they get to that pressure.
Jones knows what a Contender or an Encore will stand.  I believe him.
There is one well known Custom guy that chambered an Encore for the 460 Weatherby Mag and it damaged the lug pretty bad.  This same guy used to chamber the Encore in 300 WSM and said "oh it is ok" until T/C asked him to stop.
He offered to replace his barrels  with somthing more suitable.  SSK wouldn't chamber the Encore for the 300 WSM because they knew that it was too much with the chamber pressure and the head diameter combination.
So 28000 psi to me is safe in a Contender per JD JONES
 To each his own opinion.
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