Author Topic: Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed  (Read 1097 times)

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Offline Jagdzeit

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed
« on: October 07, 2003, 10:52:41 AM »
(1) What torque value should the plug be tightened to ??
I've talked to people that go anywhere from "finger tight "to "Crank it right down".

I know that there are torque specs for each and every type of bolt, and that is basically what a breach plug is. I also know that a bolt of the same diameter of the plug would have to be torqued to anywhere from 45 to 75 foot pounds for the threads to be properly locked. Which would be rediculous in this situation.
So, what is it ? Any ideas out there ??

(2) Why is it that NO ONE has ever suggested using copper anti-sieze compound on the breach plug threads ?? It is resistant to high temperatures, unlike bore butter or other products I've seen recomended.

Stay Safe,
Franz
Oppose the 2nd Amendment, you're an enemy of the Bill of Rights.
Enemy of the Bill of Rights, you 're an enemy of the Constitution.
Enemy of the Constitution, you're an enemy of The People.
Enemy of The People, you're an enemy of mine.  :blaster:

Offline Omega

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2003, 12:09:50 PM »
Quote
(1) What torque value should the plug be tightened to ??
I've talked to people that go anywhere from "finger tight "to "Crank it right down".


On my Encores and Omegas I do just that, finger tight and no more.

Quote
(2) Why is it that NO ONE has ever suggested using copper anti-sieze compound on the breach plug threads ?? It is resistant to high temperatures, unlike bore butter or other products I've seen recomended.

There are on going discussions of which produt to use or that someone has had the most success with. Bosticks Nevr Seize is the most often recomended product but I have tried Copperplate, Jet lube and a Locktite product all with some success.
Rich
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline catman

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2003, 05:34:18 PM »
omega man,
 what bear grease are you putting on your theads for finger tight. i have been using crisco solid lard. (cheep an handy) i know the encore and omega have lots of theads and would never unscrew with normal shooting with out being notised :D
odds are with the prepared.....

Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2003, 12:46:16 AM »
Quote from: Jagdzeit
(
(2) Why is it that NO ONE has ever suggested using copper anti-sieze compound on the breach plug threads ?? Franz


Franz, I've done just that repeatedly-- in articles and on video tape. Any anti-seize product that has MIL-SPEC A907E on the can.

It has always been "finger-tight only." As one BP trainer phrased it, tighten it down as hard as you want-- you are the fellow that gets to untighten it!

Offline Jagdzeit

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Re: Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2003, 03:47:50 AM »
Quote
Any anti-seize product that has MIL-SPEC A907E on the can.

It has always been "finger-tight only." As one BP trainer phrased it, tighten it down as hard as you want-- you are the fellow that gets to untighten it!


Randy,
Being new to MZ loaders, even though I've glanced at articles and other information in my reloading books, I just never saw anthing written on the anti sieze and thought I had a fairly original good idea. I use it in my motorcycle shop all the time. There are 3 types. Aluminum good to about 1400 degrees, copper 1800 degrees, and nickle 2400 degrees.  Nickle is what I will be using. Permatex P/N-77124

As for the finger tight on the plug. It would make more sense to tighten to at least 6 pounds of torque to get the threads to lock into each other and create a better seal. It only makes sense that loose threads with any type of play would allow movement under pressure and allow for blowback into the threaded area to happen. Causing the plug to become ever so tight with crud while also stretching the threads with the repeated shock load of being fired.
This is just my thought on it, from a technical point of view, and like I said, I'm new to this MZ loader stuff and German.  :-D
So please bear with me and my questions.

Stay Safe,
Franz
Oppose the 2nd Amendment, you're an enemy of the Bill of Rights.
Enemy of the Bill of Rights, you 're an enemy of the Constitution.
Enemy of the Constitution, you're an enemy of The People.
Enemy of The People, you're an enemy of mine.  :blaster:

Offline Omega

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2003, 03:59:39 AM »
Quote
As for the finger tight on the plug. It would make more sense to tighten to at least 6 pounds of torque to get the threads to lock into each other and create a better seal.


Go for it if you like, as Randy said you are the one that gets to loosen it. In your defence I used to tighten mine down using a wrench, not no more!
Rich
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline Jagdzeit

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2003, 04:05:10 AM »
Rich,
 I understand what you both mean about it getting tighter. But it was just a thought on my part.
So now for another thought, I think I'll take the advice of people like yourselves that have experience with this and keep it finger tight.
 So thanks.

Stay Safe,
Franz
Oppose the 2nd Amendment, you're an enemy of the Bill of Rights.
Enemy of the Bill of Rights, you 're an enemy of the Constitution.
Enemy of the Constitution, you're an enemy of The People.
Enemy of The People, you're an enemy of mine.  :blaster:

Offline Omega

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2003, 05:29:50 AM »
Quote from: Jagdzeit
Rich,
 I understand what you both mean about it getting tighter. But it was just a thought on my part.

Hey I know exactley what you mean, it really goes against the grain of techies like us to use and believe in such a soft measurement! I introduced a fellow to the sport last week and he didn't take my advice on "finger tight" to heart, he called me last night with a frozen breach plug in his Omega after a big day of shooting T7. After I got it unstuck he confessed and now just goes finger tight.
Rich
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline Winter Hawk

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2003, 06:49:02 AM »
On the other hand, you might consider getting a sidelock, underhammer or flintlock and not worry about removing the breechblock :>)  Patched round ball has killed a whole bunch more critters than you would think from the inline manufacturers' literature!

-Kees-
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone

Offline Omega

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2003, 07:54:06 AM »
You'll get no arguement from me on that. But I like to say "each to his own" and I'll stick with my T/C inlines.
Rich :D
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline Jagdzeit

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2003, 09:08:17 AM »
Quote from: keesvw2002
On the other hand, you might consider getting a sidelock, underhammer or flintlock and not worry about removing the breechblock :>)  Patched round ball has killed a whole bunch more critters than you would think from the inline manufacturers' literature!

-Kees-


I agree. After all, patched balls of one kind or another  :wink: have been around since the beginning of time. I've had a few different side hammers years ago. Even BP pistols. Then when Remington came out with their in line, I was the first kid on my block to own one. But I just never really got into it like I did with modern smokeless cartridge rifles and handguns. I was never one to really like to sit down and clean a rifle or handgun after I finished shooting it. Call me lazy, but I believe that a clean gun is a sign of running out of fodder to shoot, or boredom. Besides, IMO they shoot better a little dirty.  :-)
Now I have the T/C Encore I got in .45 cal BP. Mainly because I have no more room in my safe for whole rifles, and the availability of different barrels that will take up a lot less room. I also put the frame on my handgun permit so I can handgun hunt with it.
Like I said, these were questions I've never seen addressed and now they are. So thanks for your input.

Stay Safe,
Franz
Oppose the 2nd Amendment, you're an enemy of the Bill of Rights.
Enemy of the Bill of Rights, you 're an enemy of the Constitution.
Enemy of the Constitution, you're an enemy of The People.
Enemy of The People, you're an enemy of mine.  :blaster:

Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2003, 02:25:42 PM »
Quote from: Jagdzeit
As for the finger tight on the plug. It would make more sense to tighten to at least 6 pounds of torque to get the threads to lock into each other and create a better seal. It only makes sense that loose threads with any type of play would allow movement under pressure and allow for blowback into the threaded area to happen. Causing the plug to become ever so tight with crud while also stretching the threads with the repeated shock load of being fired.


It does not seal, though there are designs in the works that do. The very coarse threads prohibit that. As many (most) are of 4140 or 416, stretch seems no issue. Some even back out their plugs slightly.

Offline Jagdzeit

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Re: Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2003, 03:15:54 PM »
[quote="RandyWakeman] As many (most) are of 4140, stretch seems no issue. Some even back out their plugs slightly.[/quote]

Why would someone want to back out a plug and expose the threads in the barrel to the pressures and heat of the powder charge. Doesn't make any sense to me. But then a lot of things people do don't make sense.

Also, AISI 4140 is not a stainless steel. It is a chrome-moly low alloy steel, also known as AN19. Nominal composition is 0.4% carbon, 1% chromium, 0.2% molybdenum, plus the usual silicon, manganese, etc, contents. I believe one of the main reasons for it's use is it can be heat treated to much higher hardness than mild steel. Yet I have read that it has no greater claim to corrosion resistance than mild steel has. I don't know about the pressures effecting the actual stretching of the threads being an issue either. But with the CUP pressures that are developed, I would expect that it is, but no one is really doing any measuring to verify it. At least no one is talking at this point since in-lines are still in their infant stages in comparison to all other MZ loaders .
Ahh, Just something else to ponder.

Stay Safe,
Franz
Oppose the 2nd Amendment, you're an enemy of the Bill of Rights.
Enemy of the Bill of Rights, you 're an enemy of the Constitution.
Enemy of the Constitution, you're an enemy of The People.
Enemy of The People, you're an enemy of mine.  :blaster:

Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: Breach plug questions I've never seen addressed
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2003, 06:00:01 PM »
Quote
Why would someone want to back out a plug and expose the threads in the barrel to the pressures and heat of the powder charge. Doesn't make any sense to me. But then a lot of things people do don't make sense.


I don't have a particularly thorough answer, except that the "backing out" is merely a slight crack open of the plug, to prevent freezing / bonding of the plug to fouling. The word was slightly. No threads are directly exposed by doing so.

The pressure spike in muzzleloading is momentary, and cannot be compared to sustained heat and pressure levels seen in the automobile industry for example. Several sidelocks (Thompson Hawken) have removeable breech plugs as well, though that is seldom discussed.

The pressure experienced directly by threads are very small in area compared to the breech plug face itself. While popular use of inlines may seem "new," there is about a twenty year history of heavy use. They date back to Pauley in 1808.

Few shooters manage more than 100 shots per day, some will not fire their guns that much in a year. With far less heat and pressure than from smokeless rounds, throat erosion is not a primary concern. The elongated snout area of many breech plugs takes the bulk of the momentary pressure spike upon firing. I know of no issues with thread stretching, but that does not mean it does not exist. The breechplug is an inexpensive, easily replaceable part-- and there is no particular issue with thread distortion from Knight, White, Thompson.

So, most breech plugs have threadless snouts that fit into the barrel, of varying lengths, and there are no directly exposed threads to the primary flame path. One of the shortest breech plugs is the White Rifle type, which is ordnance grade stainless steel (416 or variant-- not sure), hardened to Rockwell 50. I don't have the specifics for you, but the pressures applied directly to threads are less than one might think.

The highest normal pressures in muzzleland are by the Savage ML-10 smokeless muzzleloader, using a carbon steel threaded breech plug with a very long snout. Those barreled actions have been tested to well over 80,000 PSI.

In a sealed action like your Encore, the pressure is contained to a great extent by the action, anyway-- just as it would be if you added a shotgun barrel to it. The Encore action is one of the strongest in muzzleloading land, as you would expect on an action that accepts a .375 H & H barrel.

Offline crow_feather

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2003, 08:27:18 AM »
Hey Randy,
In 1636, a person invented a black powder lever action wheel lock that could fire at least 5 shots without reloading.  Does that mean that I can use my 94 with black powder cartridges? :P

I gonna get a patched balled 94 and get me some deer. :lol:

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline HWooldridge

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Breach plug questions I've never seen addre
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2003, 09:44:57 AM »
I have nothing but traditional rifles and use aluminum anti-seize on the threads (kit built).  I tighten to dead stop on the shoulder of the unmarked barrel with a crescent wrench and then back off the next flat.  All tenons and dovetails are then cut from there.  I average about 40 shots per week and have never had trouble with pulling a plug.