Author Topic: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"  (Read 1338 times)

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Offline jim36

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My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« on: November 20, 2009, 12:29:59 PM »
I had posted this a month or two ago, but I am now back to square one.
My 45 70 loads are leaving a bulge on the outside of the case.
I was told to go ahead and shoot them. Well, problem is they won't chamber in my Handi.
When only a short time back, I was using a Lee Classic Loader (hit & hammer) and my loads were shooting really good.
I decided to go ahead and get a set of Lee dies for my 45 70. Now after resizing full length, I'm getting this bulge on every case, after I seat the bullet.
 Some shoot    some don't, because they won't chamber
I've tried everything that
was suggested but my loads look like a pregnant young woman. ;D
I have been loading Hornady 300 gr and also Sierra 300 gr. Both are 458 dia.
Give me your opinions and ideas.  Like I stated, I had posted this once before, so help me out.


 :) :)

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2009, 12:52:01 PM »
Jim

I have found this problen a few times myself , what I found to work is after I load a round , I take the de-capping pin out of the FL sizing die and run the loaded round back up into the die , that will iron out the buldge and bring the case back in to spec so it will chamber .

The reason that the ( wack a mole  ;D ) loader did so well is that it only neck sized the cases and left the case body fireformed to your chamber .

You could also try not running the cases all the way up into the FL die , sort of a partial sizing .

stimpy 
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2009, 01:31:51 PM »
Thanks    Stimpy    Gonna try to size them as you suggested.
 I like this old cartridge, and she really does shoot well. It's one of my fun guns, but I am really making some ugly reloads. Gonna take it to the tripod stand in the am.
                           Thanks again
                                                 Jim

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2009, 02:01:33 PM »
Stimpy     You de most.   I ironed them all out. Everyone chambers as they should. Removed the de capper and used some Hornady Unique sizing lube . and the job was complete. They all chamber as they should.
I know you never hear these words at home, "But, you are the man"
                                               Thank again
                                                                   Jim

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2009, 02:21:38 PM »
You could also try not running the cases all the way up into the FL die , sort of a partial sizing .

A little late, but this is how I resize my 45-120 and 38-55.  Just enough of the case to hold the bullet.   :-\  Or more correctly, no more then the depth of the seated bullet...  :-\  well, actually not quite as deep as I seat the bullet... or thereabouts...  :-[
Richard
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Offline 41 mag

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2009, 02:33:51 PM »
Jim.

It sounds like your crimping the bullet at the same time your seating it. This WILL sometimes give the crush on the case. You might also try seating and then doing the crimp to see it this is the case. I have also had a crimp push the case out like this when I was putting too much on it. I backed off and found it all went away.

IT's at least worth a check.


Offline Terbltim

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 02:39:59 PM »
Jim,
Stimpy did indeed give good & correct advice.
I too, say not to size the cases so deeply because the rest of the case is unsupported during the bullet-seating operation and if the bullet has to fight a really tight neck the case-wall can bulge, wrinkle or even collapse.

But...you should NOT be having that problem at all and you shouldn't need to "iron out" the cases after a normal loading operation.
Check to see if your cases are too long.
Also, see if a hard crimp is being made during bullet-seating.
Excesses in length or crimp [or a combination of both] can cause  a lot of unpleasantness.

Don't newer Lee die sets have the Factory Crimp die included?
If yes, then the bullet seating die should be adjusted to give NO Crimp.

In any case, if it doesn't clear up with a little adjusting be prepared to send those dies back and get another set, pronto.
If it's not one of these things, you might ask Lee (for what it might be worth.)
Regardless of the excellent info being offered here, you should not be having trouble with your ammo if you're following the directions correctly.
It shouldn't cost you anything but the bother to get them replaced.
"Stop global whining!"

Offline Autorim

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 05:36:34 PM »
I agree that you should not be having this problem. I have loaded the 45-70 for quite a few years and have never had this problem. I cannot recall ever having this problem with any cartridge. It sounds like you may be crimping and seating at the same time. I always crimp in a separate operation and never crimp unless necessary. I fire all of my 45-70 ammo in a single shot and I never crimp.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 03:50:59 AM »
Good stuff here!  I just assumed that the "bulge" you were talking about was caused by the bullet being seated in a case that was sized down on the tight side.  But that doesn't usually prohibit the round from chambering.  I knew something didn't sound right but didn't think before I typed.   :-[

But a case bulged from over zelous crimping may.  And I once ironed out such a bulge  :-[ :-[ enough to get the round to chamber by doing what Richard suggested.   :P
Richard
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 04:23:58 AM »
Jim

The guys bring up a real good point about the crimp causing the buldge , also you may want to check the I.D. of the FL sized case mouth , what also could be happening is that your expander is not large enough for the bullet dia.

Your neck I.D. should be between .456 and .457 to use with a bullet sized at .458 , if thats the case you may indeed need a new set of dies or atleast a new expander , however the fact that not all the rounds do this makes me think that it is a crimping or bullet alignment problem pushing the buldge out .

Is it on just one side or is it all around the case ?

stimpy 
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2009, 08:43:10 AM »
Stimpy    It is always on one side only.  I am not crimping at all. I may have a die problem. Gonna measure it and see.
 Thanks guys for the input. I have some new brass also. Gonna measure it and reload some to see if the same thing takes place.

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2009, 10:48:05 AM »
O K guys. Here is what I did. I took the full length resize die and polished it with JB bore cleaner. Degreased it. Put it back together. Took the expander die and did the same. Took resized brass and ran the expander down to almost 1/4 in in depth. Slowly tried to align the bullet in the case mouth and seated it to the cannelure ring. No crimp. Shazam shazam. I can see the ring at the bottom of the seated bullet, but there are no more ugly one sided bulges. All go into the chamber as if there was never a problem. I don't know the exact cure that I made, but ugliness is now gone.
                       Thanks again for all of your input.
                                                                         Jim

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 01:39:14 AM »
in my opinion a slightly bulged case is a good thing. It shows you that you have good case tension on your bullet. I would never iron it out with a sizing die as when you do that you are sizing your bullet smaller too and the bullet and case will both spring back some afterward and both because they are made of differnt metals will spring back differntly and it could actually cause your bullet to be gripped even less by the case. Look at your bulge if it is not equal all the way around you could be starting your bullets into the case crooked. If it is even all the way around then id go to the problem suggested before about seating and crimping with the same die. To be honest in a tapered case or a straight case if i didnt see some bulge id be conserned not the other way.
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Offline Terbltim

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 02:09:27 AM »
That's excellent that you were able to "solve" the problem without having to send the die set back but...
Not knowing what the problem actually was is gonna bug you for awhile.
With luck it'll never re-occur and you'll eventually get accustomed to not having bulged cases.
Seeing the bulge of the bullet [in the neck] shows good case-neck grip but the rest of the case should look normal.
When "ironing" out case-bulge you'll can accomplish it without going as deep as the seated bullet. (You prob'ly knew/did that.)
By the way, if you're shooting a single shot, (Handi-Rifle?) you don't need a crimp anyway and can seat the bullet to any depth you desire as long as you don't get it too firmly into the rifling.
You probably already knew that too.
That makes the idea of setting the sizing die so it doesn't full-length size the case worth doing as a regular practice. The un-sized portion will help center the load in the chamber.

Another "trick" [of long-range competitors] to aid in that subject is to file a small notch in the edge of the rim and always be sure that notch is pointed "up" when you chamber the cartridge. That way the fire-formed part of the case sits in the chamber exactly the same way every time its loaded.

(I've been loading for the 45/70 Marlin for about 30 years and it isn't as forgiving as the single-shot guns in a couple of important ways.
I wrote so many letters to Marlin I sometimes wonder if I might be part of why they came out with the 450 Marlin Ctg. It is a fair representative of how I was loading and shooting in the '90s.
I've "chilled-out" on that level of power as I learned more about cast bullets and now keep things between 1600 to 1900 fps depending on what bullet I'm using and for what purpose.)

I think the 45/70 is one of the best cartridges on the planet.
All God's chillin' should have one, (or 2...or more.)
  8)

"Stop global whining!"

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM"
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 02:58:19 AM »
YOU GUYS ARE THE GREATEST ;D
I don't know what I used to do, now that I found this GB site.
Went ahead and loaded some more rounds ,without a problem.
You are absolutely correct when you stated "everyone should have a 45 70"
I think it is one of the most "fun Guns" that I have.
I have been loading for a long time, and this was a first for me to have those bulges on the side of the case. What ever it was, it's back to normal.
As  MARTHA would say.  "THAT'S A GOOD THING" ;D ;D
 THANKS AGAIN GUYS FOR THE INPUT.
                                                Jim

Offline fuzzy

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2009, 04:53:27 AM »
I have found that the expander plug on my lee dies is 452 after getting a biger plug the problem went away
I rather be over the hill than in it

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2009, 05:13:15 AM »
Fuzzy    What/which expander plug did you get. All of the loads still have a little of the bulge, but they now do chamber and shoot well. All of the slight bulge is only one one side.
            Thanks
                          Jim

Offline Varmint Hunter

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2009, 02:00:30 PM »
I've loaded MANY 45-70 rounds. On a rare occasion I would get a buldge high up on the case that would cause an unacceptably tight fit. The cause was determined to be a case that was slightly longer than it should have been for the die in its present adjustment.

It is VERY important that all of your brass is trimmed to the same length and that the crimping die (or combination seater/crimper) is set for brass at that length. Let the brass get a little longer and you'll get bulged cases.

Offline johnjohn

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 02:47:41 PM »
I know this sounds goofy, but I try every round I load in the appropriate gun before leaving the bench. Saves embarrasment at the range when something won't chamber. This happened to me when I first started,was no one to question on the internet and was alot of trouble to figure out what went wrong.

Offline Steve P

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 10:20:13 AM »
Glad it worked out for you.  Case bulging can be caused by a number of reasons.  A lot of them have been stated here.

As stated before, the 45-70 case should not have to be full length sized.  If you do full length size it, you can get springback that causes the "coke bottle effect".  The sides of your case look like this: ) (   This is a little exagerated of course, but it is really noticable when using carbide dies on long straight wall cases like 357 max and 445.  Only size enough of the case to hold your bullet.  No more.  If you get a bulge at the base of the bullet, you are getting into this narrowing area of your brass.

Are you belling your brass before seating your bullet.  Cast bullets, even if gas checked, should be inserted into a belled case mouth.  This not only helps keep the bullet straighter when seating, it removes some of the initial stress in getting the bullet started into the sized case.

What does the seating stem in your seating die look like?  Are you using a round nose seat with a round nose bullet and a flat nose seat with a flat nose bullet?  A sure way to leave a bulge in your case by using the wrong seating stem and starting the bullet crooked.   If you don't have a seating stem that matches your bullet exact, a little JB Weld and release compound can be used to form a tip on your seating stem that matches your bullet.  Put a little vaseline, pam spray, or similar release agent inside your die.  Screw the seating stem down as far as you can while still allowing you to put the bullet up into the die. Put in a ball of JB Weld and push the bullet covered with release agent up into the die to form the die punch.  Allow it to set for a couple of minutes and pull the bullet out.  If you don't use release agent on the die, you will have JB Weld stuck to the sides of your die walls.  If done properly on a straight wall case die, the punch will last for years and will not harm your die at all.

When it comes to crimping, there are several things that can cause bulging cases.  Die set to deep and trying to "over crimp" the brass can cause bulges at the base of the brass near the case head.  Seating stem set too far down in some dies can allow the bullet to start crooked.  Over crimping into a cannelure can cause the base of the brass to bulge.  Crimping in the wrong location on a cast bullet can cause the case to bulge.

I seat my bullets so the cannelure or crimp groove of the bullet is seated into the case mouth. You want the mouth of the case even with the edge of the cannelure or groove that is closest to the bullet point.  As you crimp the brass, it is going in and actually compressing down a little.  Having the cannelure and groove down into the case mouth allows your brass to radius without much force and the outside edge of brass case mouth actually ends up about middle of the groove or cannelure.

Are you seating the bullet and crimping at the same time?  Thats like trying to close your garage door at the same time you are driving the car into the garage.  Might work some of the time but eventually the door is going to hit the car.

Seat the bullets with cannelure or crimp groove even with case mouth as mentioned above.  After all the bullets are seated, you can readjust your die.  Turn the seating stem all the way up and start turning your crimp die into the press with the ram in the up position.  Screw in the die until you feel the die make contact with your brass.  Raise the press arm and turn your die an additional 1/16th of a turn.  Try to crimp.  You can feel it if it crimps.  You want the press ram to cam over on your crimp.  If you keep adjusting in 1/16 turn increments, you can see the crimp start to develop and can feel it.  When the case mouth is directed toward the bullet, you are done.  You don't have to cram the brass into the bullet to have a good crimp.  A nice and even roll into the groove is all you need to raise pressures or hold the bullet.  If you were to tap the bullet like you are tapping it into the case, the top ring of the crimp groove or cannelure should come up against your brass.  This is just a knife edge and that is all it take as long as you are symmetrical all the way around the case.

Like I said before, I am glad the folks who responded before me helped you out.  This is a good topic and I just wanted to add another 2 cents that may help someone else someday.

Steve  :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline jim36

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Re: My ugly 45 70 reloads "SICK OF THEM" " FIXED UM"
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 11:12:01 AM »
Steve... Thanks for the post.  You gave some really good info. I an slowly working this thing out, with all the suggestions given me. They are greatly appreciated. Thw 45 70 is the only reload that I had do this thing.  I am going to order the 458 expander for the die, as suggested by Fuzzy.
I do not crimp any of the loads, because I shoot them in my Handi and feel they need no crimp.
 Thanks again for all suggestions
                                 HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL
                                                                       
Jim   <><   <><   <><