Author Topic: infamous carcano (Read 2749 times)

pcking78 · « **on:** October 22, 2009, 05:04:20 AM »

I am somewhat of a "lurker". I've been reading this forum for years but have only posted a few times. I posted this question on another forum and didn't get many replies and felt it was a more appropriate question here anyways.

Well, I have a project I'd like some advice on. My grandfather has given me several guns over the years, the most recent being a 6.5 carcano. With it's short barrel and light kick I envision it being a fairly handy rifle.
However, as you know it has that split receiver in the back. No good for mounting scopes. The rear sight is a solid, permanent addition to the barrel, non-adjustable.
My question is this. I noticed the rear base that is part of the rear sight is about the same height as the front receiver ring. Would it be possible to grind down the rear sight, drill and tap the base of the sight and the receiver ring, and mount some type of scout setup?
So, what do you guys think???

All comments are appreciated.

thanks

Huffmanite · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2009, 11:50:19 AM »

A military surplus purist would be all over you for doing such a bubba thing to your carcano. LOL. Even though I own my share of surplus military rifles and never do anything to alter there original configuration, I'd say you have possible solution to mounting a scope on a Carcano. I have no carcano rifles to check the feasibility of your idea. However, I do suggest to you the possible use of a scope base made for the Marlin 336 30-30 rifle. The bottom of this scope mount is perfectly flat and may lend itselt to what you want to do. I'm not sure if Wal-Mart still sells this scope mount, but they once did. Good Luck!

wganz · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:35:52 PM »

Purists Schmurists. $:-\$

It is your rifle, do with it what you may to increase its usability. There were side mounts made for it like the infamous LHO rifle had if you want to add optics though, IMO, this won't be necessary for the practical range for this weapon. The 6.5 Carcano is a decent round but you're going to be limited by the throating for the longish original round nose bullet. Based on my experience, you're going to be limited to ~200 yards of practical accuracy.

My suggestion is to do what I did with mine and to get a flat base bullet mold to cast your own bullets. There is a safety factor in that you're going to limit velocities to ~ 1500fps to keep the pressures down. But with a very hard bullet, it is an more than adequate self defense/feral predator(hog/dog) short range weapon. It will be a bolt action version of the .25-35.

Post pix of what you come up with.

Old Fart · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2009, 05:41:17 AM »

I'm kind of the same way when it comes to milsurps.
If it's already been bubba'd I don't worry.

If not I try to run it by one of the local collectors to make sure it's not some rare variation.

There are some fine shooting milsurps out there.
Most could use some cosmetic improvements to make them a little more handy.

But to be honest I really like the way most of them look, so I don't as a practice change any.

pcking78 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2009, 07:55:10 AM »

Thanks for the advice guys. I don't think that this rifle would in any way be a collector item. Most of the blueing is gone and my grandad cut the stock down to "sporterize" it years ago. It's not one that I would ever part with anyway. I already have a win 94 and was just wanting a short handy rifle that was still scoped for the occasional long shot. However, I do hate to destroy the rear sight.

I'll keep researching it and see what i come up with.
thanks

iiranger · « **Reply #5 on:** October 24, 2009, 09:01:44 AM »

Your problem is very simple. You are young. Back in the days when these were "all over" and Kleins of Chicago had the back page of the Rifleman, every issue, covered with mil surplus... Ruby pistols... Webley revolvers in .38 S&W... Springfields, Enfields, etc... (Yes, they sold mail order the Carc that killed Kennedy -??- ...) The sight people, Lyman, Williams, etc. had about anything you cared to pay for. And the scope people too. As I recall, the "big one" was a side mount by Lyman. If you go to "the source" and look, they should still have some things around. You just won't find them at Midway. Too little demand.

You might also inquire about S&K and B&K... they have the "scout mounts" that fit into the rear sight of Mausers. I had no particular experience with Carc's Didn't care for the stripper clip design... Then a friend showed me his collection piece. Nicely made piece of junk. Fixed sights on a battle rifle? No wonder Italians are known as lovers not fighters... [He was as proud as a new poppa of his "FAG" rifle. I suggested that some gun hater might not understand a "fag" rifle so he explained that Italians marked maker in white paint on the rifle butt... "FAG" as for "fabricated at Garceone" Arsenel...] Now if you could get a sight that banded around the barrel, might have to relieve the stock some... Just a thought. Luck.

Stan in SC · « **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2009, 02:12:42 AM »

Williams may still make a side mount for the Carcano.

Stan in SC

Gerry N. · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2009, 11:13:12 AM »

Another problem with the Carcano is that the rifle needs the en bloc clip to function as a repeater. The clips are getting harder to find and expensive. Not impossible to find, just difficult. Graf has their house brand of ammo for the 6.5 Carcano as does Norma. You're looking at a buck a round or more though.

Don't dismiss the sighting system of the Carcano out of hand. The fixed rear sight is actually better than it seems. With the front blade held at the top of the rear sight it's regulated at 400 meters with service ammo, hold the top of the front at the bottom of the notch and it's sighted point blank to about 175 meters. I've had several Carcanos and with good ammo they are as accurate as most "deer" rifles, that being they will hit within 2" of point of aim to at least 75 yards.

Not varmint or bench rest precision, but "Minute of Deer".

My favorite Carcano was a 7.35 that had been the property of the Finnish Army. I shot 130 gr. Hornady cor-loc bullets that I sized to .300" in a custom Lee push through die. My brass was necked up 6.5mm M-S by Norma and that bullet powered by 37 grs. of 3031 chrony'd at 2400 fps and shot reliably into a 6" bull at 100 yds. That was pretty much a bolt action .30-30. As a plus, that hatchet head buttplate accentuated the recoil already made uncomfortable by a stock design straight from Hades. Five or six shots out of that thing and you were ready to name names or turn in your grandma.

Let's see: Stock design an ergonomic nightmare, poorly designed bolt handle placement, even worse safety, hard to find yet expensive ammo, pull length a touch short for the average American seven year old, what's to like?

If you want a light, handy, inexpensive hunting rifle, take a look at a Handi in .243 or .30-30.

Gerry N.

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2009, 10:53:44 AM »

The Nov/Dec 2009 issue of "the Backwoodsman" magazine has an article on the Carcano.

S.S. · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 02:13:48 PM »

I would say that you are about to waste a good bit of time and money
on a rifle that you will not be pleased with in the end. Any alterations
such as you are discussing will also kill any value the weapon has.

semtav · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2009, 04:38:49 PM »

I've had a Carcano carbine for years. (bought it at an auction for $15 if that tell you how long I've had it). bought a couple boxes of Norma cartdridges for it and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it so I put it away for 30 yrs. then I get into casting bullets recently and start doing some reading , only to find out that the reaason i couldn't hit the broad side of a barn was becasue the rifling is about .005 larger than all the 6.5 bullets.
So I get reinterested in the Carcano, and wind up with a rifle version too. I've just started to get some bullets for it in the proper size (.270 ) and recently went out and sighted the rifle in for the local Milsurp silhouette match. I was consistantly ringing the 300, 350 and 400 yd targets.

Haven't started with the carbine yet, but i'm sure it will be a good shooter too, cause the barrel looks real good.

But, botttom line, you are going to be sorely disappointed in your carbine unless you get serious about casting bullets for it.

c1skout · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2009, 11:04:53 AM »

My carcano carbine shoots the Norma stuff really well so your post made me curious enough to do some checking. My norma factory bullets are .263 . My bore reads .263 and .265 in the lands at the muzzle. I guess mine must be tighter than yours. I don't think I'd want to try jacketed .270 bullets in mine.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2009, 11:17:15 AM »

Before you spend any time or money on this project, have you shot it? If it's a good shooter, then maybe scope it. If it's only OK, then a scope won't change that. You may find that it's enjoyable with the iron sights, or you may decide that it needs glass. Either way, don't spend a dime until you have played with the rifle a bit.

Also, consider the price of feeding it. 6.5 isn't so thick on the ground these days. You can get some, but not cheap. There are plenty of low dollar light rifles out there in more common calibers hanging on used gun racks all over this great land. Last year I picked up a Marlin in 30-30 with the short tube magazine for $200 tax included. When you compare the cost of ammo between the 30-30 and the 6.5 carcano, it won't take forever before you put as much money down the pipe as you would have on another rifle.

semtav · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2009, 06:03:37 PM »

Just dug out my notebook on my silhouette sightings. On every target, once I found the range and hit it, I followed it up with a second shot to verify my sighting. every one hit. These were with the original sights. I don't know if that was just dumb luck or not. but I'm pretty excited about shooting it now.
target #1 240 yds (est) I hit this one on the first shot I took
target #2 450 yds
target #3 488 yds
target #4 300 yds
target #5 346 yds
target #6 350 yds (est)

these were all shot with a 129 grain Kurtz cast bullet using Norma shells that I removed the factory bullet and powder and put in 14 gr 4227.
If I can't get as good of accuracy during the match, I'm going to blame it on the failure to acquire norma primers.

cause I ran out of the factory ammo and have to use cci for the match.

I agree with the statement that the 6.5 is expensive to shoot.....if you are using factory ammo..... however with cast, its as cheap as any other once you've acquired an adequate supply of brass.

since i am only target shooting, I have no idea how much killing power this load has. (probably not much)

kernman · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2009, 01:57:44 AM »

Why is the Carcano infamous? Is it because it was the rifle that was allegedly used to kill JFK? I heard somewhere that this weapon was not very accurate, casting doubts on whether Oswald actualy killed Kennedy.

Can anyone comment on this? I don't mean to hijack your thread, pcking78, but my question seems relavant, at least to me.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2009, 02:21:59 AM »

Quote from: kernman on November 21, 2009, 01:57:44 AM

Why is the Carcano infamous? Is it because it was the rifle that was allegedly used to kill JFK? I heard somewhere that this weapon was not very accurate, casting doubts on whether Oswald actualy killed Kennedy.

Can anyone comment on this? I don't mean to hijack your thread, pcking78, but my question seems relavant, at least to me.

Like all milsurp rifles, some examples are better than others. You will find Mausers (known as an inherently good design) that were rode hard and put up wet and can barely put two rounds in the same county, particularly with ammo of uncertain origins. You can also find examples that could neuter a rodent at the far end of the pasture. Alot has to do with the use and history of the example you have in hand. Any of the WWII bolt action rifles has the basic elements needed to be a good shooter, and any of them could be damaged beyond practical utility.

The Carcano may not be the rifle that the 1903 or the SmLE, but it's certainly accurate enough for what it was intended for and more. Not an 800 yard rifle, but the shots you refer to were all under 150yds if I'm not mistaken. The "LHO's rifle wasn't accurate enough, so therefor -------did it" arguement doesn't really make a compelling case, in my opinion. I'm not about to get haulled off into a JFK conspiracy theory debate here (maybe in another thread) but that aspect that does relate to the discussion at hand is kind of a non issue.

If the rifle has a good bore, particularly at the crown and the chamber, and is in overall good or better condition, you should do well with good ammo.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2009, 02:30:13 AM »

Most Carcanos can hold 3 to 4" groups at 100 yards, well withing minure of head at 80 yards.

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2009, 10:12:26 AM »

Since the rear sight is sweated and pinned in place remove it and sweat on a suitable "scout" scope platform useing a duplicate rear sight (mill it flat and fasten a picatinny rail) or a mount copied from the sight base (machine shop work) then one doesent have to do any bolt or mag or stock modifictions, you will still able to use those manllicher charger strips. it you want to remove the scope mount, sweat the old fixed sight back on.

prairiedog555 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2009, 12:47:27 PM »

There was a History Channel piece on the JFK assassination. They got a professional hunter from Africa to try to simulate the alledged shots.
They even put him up on a tower at exact height to shoot down. But when sighting in the Carcano he did pretty well with it and said it was unfair that it was looked down upon because it was an accurate and dependable weapon. He took weeks practicing up and got it shooting around 2 moa if I remember correctly.
So they timed him and he got off aimed moving target shots on target in the allotted time to duplicate the incident.
So they surmised that Oswald, who was an excellent Marine shooter, (they showed his marxmanship grades from Marine records) could have done it.
Also interesting if you remember the "pristine bullet" argument that it would have been deformed. Well they shot the Carcano into a fence post, and the bullet still was not deformed.
I was surprised at the outcome because I never met a conspiracy that I didn't like, but you have to listen to facts.

c1skout · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2009, 03:02:06 PM »

I saw that program too, definately interesting.

GatCat · « **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2009, 08:23:03 PM »

Not to derail the thread entirerly, but three excellent books on the JFK shooting are:
Gerald Posner " Case Closed",
Mark Furham " A Simple Act of Murder", and
Vince Bugliosi " Reclaiming History".
They mention ( test ) carcano accuracy, and speed of operation, and all reach the same results, LHO acted alone.
All good reads, all have decent/good things to say about the Carcano. After all, in era when Countries switched to bolt action, smokeless powder repeating rifles, the Governments of those countries were betting their very existance on the weapons they selected. Think about it: no airplanes, simple cannons, etc. The infantry, and short-barrelled cavalry carbines ( same action ), ruled the battlefield, and NO country would adopt an inferior weapon. Sure, some would later prove to be better "sporterized" then others, but for their intended purposes, ALL were good.
Mark

Mikey · « **Reply #21 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:01:18 AM »

billy: I believe the distance was 60 yds and with kennedy's large head it was a easy shot. Oswald's marksmanship rating was 'Marksman', which isn't all that great but he had practiced with the rifle and kennedy was a easy target.

prairiedog555: the 'pristine bullet' theory - that is, a fmj 160 gn mil-spec slug not deforming lends credence to oswald being the only shooter, but the fly in the ointment is that the slug that was recovered on the stretcher, the pristine bullet, was a segmented 160 gn slug that was designed to either fragment coming out the barrel, as in a perimeter defense round, or fragment when it hit. And less than 20 years after the end of the war when kennedy was shot should have normally meant the slug should have fragmented. Of course, there wasn't any ballistic testing to determine if (1) the bullet had indeed been fired from a rifle or just 'dropped' on the stretcher (2) that it was fired from oswald's rifle or (3) that it contained any of kennedy's blood/tissue in the segmenting grooves.

In fact, that bullet seems to have disappeared after being photographed on the stretcher. Hmmmmm, comspiracies at work.....

GatCat · « **Reply #22 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:43:58 AM »

Not to start a flame-up, but..
The "magic bullet" was a Western ( I believe ) factory round, with the proper diameter for the Carcano. As mentioned, it was recovered on a stretcher. It was NOT pristine, being somewhat flattened at the base. It was matched by FBI as being fired from the recovered Carcano, to the exclusion of all others. It is still in evidence. It was not a "segmented", although it probably has a crimping groove ( don't recall ).
The FBI did indeed test-fire the recovered Carcano, but only a limited amount, so as not to degrade the existing machine marks in bore, etc.
Also, FYI, the 3 recovered spend rounds ( empty brass ) were matched to have been fired from the recovered rifle, to the exclusion of all others.
Small bits of bullet from Connelly were only matched as to having same alloy as the intact recovered bullet, but since the bits were too small, no ballistic comparisons were possible.
It's also interesting that when LHO was arrested he had a forged ( phony) draft card, in the name of Alek Hidell ( spelling ?). That is the name the carcano ( and the revolver ) where sent to. The P.O. Box rental application signature was matched to LHO.
Lots of interesting facts in the case.
Mark