Author Topic: paper patch bullets  (Read 2152 times)

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Offline john777

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paper patch bullets
« on: March 11, 2012, 05:41:19 AM »
Anyone know  of a good place to get bullets at a reasonable price...Shipping is what kills ya...
I havent cast a bullet in several years.....so point me in the right direction please.....Turtle

Offline timothy

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 08:41:52 AM »
You might try buffaloarms.com or montanabulletworks.com

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 03:36:14 AM »
thanks for the info. man   8) you ever deal with them? any good?

Offline Nobade

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 01:47:23 AM »
Both good companies to deal with. Buffalo Arms is pretty much the main supplier of BPCR stuff in the US. 
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 02:53:03 AM »
well,guess it's time to get out the old check book then..And order a few thousand bullets...Thanks

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 02:43:15 AM »
lets get this forum a moving.No sense letting the other ones have all the fun and keep the knowledge hidden...

Offline jparedes

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 10:07:28 AM »
My favorite:  montanabulletworks.com

Offline Nobade

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 02:08:03 AM »
lets get this forum a moving.No sense letting the other ones have all the fun and keep the knowledge hidden...

Well, I have tried from time to time but every time I post what great results I am getting with PP I get flogged and either get called a liar or told I am doing something stupid. So I spend most of my time over where folks can talk about this stuff and learn from each other.   
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 01:58:06 PM »
well, I would like to hear or read what your doing..I am having some luck but not a lot so far..
I need more bullets now,so I ordered  100 of them..I don't want to get into casting untill I have a better understanding of what I am doing,right or wrong...So If you care to share I will be interested in it...Stumble

Offline rdlange

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 04:40:28 AM »
Lots of opinions about what works for whom.  Seems more like art form than exact science.  I look for 'nobade' posts here and on at least one forum even though I don't shoot his calibers.  So... post anyway.
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 01:57:48 PM »
Lots of opinions about what works for whom.  Seems more like art form than exact science.  I look for 'nobade' posts here and on at least one forum even though I don't shoot his calibers.  So... post anyway.
opinions are one thing,rather they are being honest is another...Some people have a habit of not wanted to share anything.....I have read hundreds of post.....I maybe be wrong,but I tend to think some on here don't have any more idea what is going on other than what they have read some place...I have called some pretty damn good shooters which I have met at some shoots...And I get a 100 percent different answer than what some on here tell you....For instance,I was told that you can not seat a paper patch (bore diameter) any deeper than like .150-.200 or what ever.....Did not work for me..I made a call to a famous shooter...Tols him what I was trying....His advice was to seat deeper...I did and BINGO   it came together good for me....It cost be a loss of powder but it shoots better than it was befor...So what can I say...Feel free to share your ideas,etc.....You aint gonna get no flack from me........Stumbling John

Offline Nobade

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 03:28:34 PM »
Aaaawww...thanks for the complements.

Now, for PP content - just like the other guys have discovered, PP with black powder and PP for smokeless are two very different things. I have been messing with smokeless and PP for about 3 1/2 years now and am finally getting a good handle on it. There really haven't been any rules until just recently since only a handful of folks have tried it and everything we have is based on the NRA's research back in the 70's. We're all learning as we go, and leapfrogging off each other's attempts.

Black powder and PP is something else entirely - it used to work, factory ammo was produced and guns made for that ammo. They shot well and lots of people used them. But they died off, the knowledge was forgotten, and a much larger number of people now (compared to PP and smokeless) are trying to re-learn how to make it work. One thing going against us there is modern guns are made very differently than those "back in the day" that were made for PP. So we have yet another thing to learn - how do we make modern rifles shoot with PP? Folks are figuring that out too, but there aren't any hard and fast rules in place yet that somebody can take and say "this will work" - every gun is different, and takes a different combination. I know Shiloh is chambering rifles specifically for PP ammo if the user requests it, and those are way easier to get to work. Just like the originals. But those of us shooting rifles chambered to take groove diameter bullets and especially ones that have any freebore in them are up for a bigger challenge.

Me, I am going both ways. I am currently shooting a C. Sharps rifle that has about 3/16" throat in it, but I recently bought a reamer for a dedicated PP chamber and I am going to make a new barrel for that rifle cut with the new reamer. That way I can switch back and forth and see what I can learn in the process. The only thing holding me up now is I need to octagon that barrel blank but it's longer than my mill table. Gotta be creative with that one...

So, I am glad you guys are on board with the PP journey and hopefully more folks will find out how addictive it is and want to join in. The more working on it the faster we will learn!
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 04:59:58 PM »
Very well writting and very informative...My rifle is a pedersoli and I have had several tell me it aint gona shot no PP bullets.We will see....I ordered some more from buffalo arms so next week I will be trying again..I do think one of my biggest problems is maybe my cleaning between shoots,as I am shooting the PP with no lube at all....What I do is put a patch in my mouth and fire the next shot..I run the patch thru the bore and follow this with a cotton ball like Pope used to do and then another cotton ball..I am thinking this should dry the bore..Now the next shot may bo good..Then I wipe the same way and this shot is off.....Maybe there is a better way....I tried a wetter patch,and the same thing...
Any ideas on this? Thanks

Offline Nobade

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2012, 04:09:56 AM »
I have spent some time trying to get PP to shoot in my C. Sharps rifle without lube, and have given up on the idea. I figured it works in the muzzle loader, why not in the cartridge gun? Well, the reason is the throat. You absolutely must not have gas blowing past that bullet at any point. And when you shoot a bore diameter bullet in a chamber designed for groove diameter bullets, things are real loose for a little while until that bullet is fully into the bore and can seal. Think about what happens at the moment of ignition. The case swells up to fill the chamber, the back end of the bullet is hanging out in the air unsupported, and nothing is keeping the gas from eating up the base of the bullet and tearing up the patch.

I proved this to myself by using the Sharps rifle as a muzzle loader. Chamber a primed case, load with enough powder to clear the throat (about 110grains in this case) use a card wad and a bullet. It shot great! But trying to get that bullet through the throat was giving me fits. So I started loading my fixed ammo with powder, card wad, two 1/8" lubricated felt wads, and a card wad. All of a sudden it started shooting! The felt wads must be providing a gas seal long enough to get the bullet into the bore completely. As an added bonus I stopped having to wipe between shots. I just use the blow tube for 5 breaths, and I am ready to fire again. I still haven't gotten it to give me what I would call gilt edge accuracy,  but I can keep 'em in 4 inches at 200M pretty easily this way.

I still haven't tried a lube cookie. I suspect it would do the same thing, but that is next. I just need to come up with a good way to make lube sheets to try it. But the felt does work well. Oh, I tried Wonder Wads. They didn't work at all. But my homemade ones, cut at .460" and lubed with Gatofeo #1 lube  work great.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2012, 06:25:41 AM »
Just happen to check  in and seen your post....Very much informative...after reading it,it caused me to think back about my own first experince..I did use a lube cookie and it shot,not to bad really...so instead of leaving well enough alone,I tried it with no cookie..Accuracy went to hell...I have head mention about the chamber being cut with a bit of free bore I guess it is called...
when I talked with another shooter he said to try no cookie,and add two wads over the powder..thining this would possibly have the same effect you say your felt wads are doing....It did work but not that good..
I have no bullets left to try for awhile now,but I think when I get them and am going to go back to a grease cookie and see if it makes any improvement..Bullets should be here next week...So it will be a good time to try different thickness of the cookie as well..I will let you know....
By the way what bullet are you using? Mine were .441 patched up to .4495...

Offline Nobade

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2012, 08:40:02 AM »
It's the BACO 545gr. Creedmoor bullet, casts out at .442" and patched to .449" with Papermill 9# onionskin paper.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline john777

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2012, 10:42:35 AM »
hate to ask you,but would you be willing to share a few of them bullets....I haven't made up my mind ifI want to get back into casting or not..I got rid of all I had a long time ago...Still have lots of bullets that I had made but nothing  for the PP....will be willing to pay for them,plus shipping
 

Offline Nobade

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Re: paper patch bullets
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2012, 02:44:08 AM »
PM sent
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."