Author Topic: Pistol Calibers in Rifle - Michigan (Read 2983 times)

Muddyboots · « **on:** June 11, 2009, 03:38:23 PM »

This was posted in Michigan forum as well but want to get as much support as possible.

All,
I have just made a proposal to 59th District Matt Lori on the use of pistol calibers in rifles for state of Michigan. I met with Rep. Lori on June 8th and he liked what he heard and indicated he will bring it to committee for review and proposal. The proposal would allow straight wall pistol calibers up to 1.8" maximum case length (.460 S&W Mag OK). The basic discussion centered on increasing recruitment to hunting for youth and woman hunters as result of having pistol calibers that would provide effective hunting capability with less recoil thus accuracy. Obviously, there are pistol calibers that thump even in rifle but there are many that don't and are effective. Economics would be a positive impact with more recruitment, firearms sold, ammo etc. Safety and enforcement is not affected since calibers are already in effect in handguns. Please contact your district rep's to inform them of this proposal that will be coming and their support would be appreciated. Please feel free to contact me if you would like more info. This has a real chance of moving forward if Rep. Lori sees some additional support. We all have been talking so now is the time to walk to the talk.
Thanks,
Muddyboots

Drugstore Cowboy · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2009, 12:19:44 PM »

Muddy,
I thought that all center fire cartridges were legal.

Muddyboots · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2009, 11:45:06 AM »

My bad, left out most important comment. This proposal is for shotgun zone where center fire are not allowed.
muddy

rocky_taco · « **Reply #3 on:** June 24, 2009, 02:51:17 PM »

If you don't have success on this venture, you might give this a try... I don't know anything about it, but stumbled across it while researching straight wall pistol cartridges for the shotgun zone.

http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/index.html

Dinny · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2009, 01:45:07 PM »

I think this is a great idea for any state that is shotgun or ML only. Indiana started it last year and has had great success. They fell a little short of the .460S&W mark with their OAL restrictions, but we won't complain too loudly. We don't want to lose what we have going for us. I was born in MI and will pass this on to all my family members and friends that still live there.

Thanks, Dinny

buckey · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:27:45 PM »

I live east of Grand Rapids and can tell you this a great idea, The only thing I can ad is also include bottle neck casings that don't exceed 1.6 this will help bring more pistol shooters to the field. Drive around Ionia county before dark and you will see we can use all the hunters we can get

Dinny · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:08:19 PM »

Quote from: buckey on July 06, 2009, 01:27:45 PM

I live east of Grand Rapids and can tell you this a great idea, The only thing I can ad is also include bottle neck casings that don't exceed 1.6 this will help bring more pistol shooters to the field. Drive around Ionia county before dark and you will see we can use all the hunters we can get

I was born and raised as a child south of there in Plainwell. Plenty of deer between there and where you live. Just ask the police when their busiest time is...wintertime...deer vs. cars. Is Casnovia near you or is it north of GR?

~Dinny

Scibaer · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:34:33 PM »

i live in southern saginaw county. if i understand you correctly, you want to be able to hunt with rifles in straight wall handgun calibers in the shotgun zone ?
is that right ? for example a NEF rifle chambered in .357mag or .44mag in the shotgun zones ? and does this include using handguns ?

Dinny · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2009, 03:09:47 PM »

Yes, that's correct. Straight-walled pistol calibers used in either a rifle or pistol in the shotgun-only zones. It has brought many new hunters to the woods in Indiana, mostly women and children that couldn't handle the recoil of slug guns. Are pistols not currently permitted in shotgun zones?

~Dinny

Scibaer · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2009, 05:12:16 AM »

Dinny, well no actually. pistols are currently permitted in the shot gun zone. michigan is divided into 3 zones. the southern half of the lower peninsula in the shotgun zone, but you can use a muzzleloader and handgun during the regular firearm deer season.
qoutes from the DNR website :

Michigan is divided into Hunting and Trapping Zones 1-2-3. Zone 1 includes all of the Upper Peninsula.
Michigan also is divided into a northern rifle zone where rifles may be used for firearm deer hunting and a southern shotgun zone where only shotguns, muzzleloading rifles and certain handguns may be used for deer hunting (see Shotgun Zone Rules).

In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow.

Legal firearms are as follows:

* A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
* A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
* A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

i guess what Muddyboot's proposal consists of is amending the current regulations to include using "medium to large caliber pistol cartridges in rifles" in the shotgun zone. this would allow "recoil sensative" people to take advantage of the zone 3 hunting opertunities. for an example: a .44mag lever action rifle, a .357mag or max H&R or some other comparable configuration of firearm.
if that is what we are talking about here, i can and will get behind this, and support it, it may open up hunting to some people who prior, were not able to hunt.

Dinny · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2009, 05:22:48 AM »

I agree that if those are the terms, then it is something to support. My 50 y/o petite mother now hunts deer with a .357 Mag Handi rifle and is having the time of her life. Reminds her of many years ago when her own father would take her out when he hunted.

~Dinny

buckey · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2009, 01:35:40 PM »

Dinny, Casnovia is a little west and north, 45 minutes or so. The deer population is way outa control here in mid- mich. Yesterday mourning a cop was killed east of Lansing, Driving his bike to work in the mourning he hit a deer, was tossed off the bike and hit by a semi. Where I hunt it's not uncommon to see 150 or more deer in 3 or 4 hours, If allowing pistol rounds in rifles brings more people out that would be a good thing. A little common sense and a lot of the rules we have could be eased. No reason that rounds such as 7mmBR and some of the short .30 cals cold not be used.

Dinny · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2009, 02:16:23 PM »

Quote from: buckey on July 07, 2009, 01:35:40 PM

Dinny, Casnovia is a little west and north, 45 minutes or so. The deer population is way outa control here in mid- mich. Yesterday mourning a cop was killed east of Lansing, Driving his bike to work in the mourning he hit a deer, was tossed off the bike and hit by a semi. Where I hunt it's not uncommon to see 150 or more deer in 3 or 4 hours, If allowing pistol rounds in rifles brings more people out that would be a good thing. A little common sense and a lot of the rules we have could be eased. No reason that rounds such as 7mmBR and some of the short .30 cals cold not be used.

I would generally agree with all of us, but I would be cautious. Crawl, walk, run. Don't risk losing it all by trying to push for too much at once. Stick to the straight-walled pistol calibers first. Once that's established and the State DNR has seen how successful it is, then try for bottle-neck pistol cartridges. Just give it a few years to take hold and let them see the revenue that is generated from more people hunting. Money motivates!

~Dinny

Scibaer · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2009, 01:39:08 AM »

your right Dinny, adding the bottle necked cartridges to that bill would kill it. those cases in rifles is "rifle hunting" and it would not get my support.
but leave the bill like it is now, and its should be good to go.

buckey · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:06:25 PM »

In reply to the bottle neck case use, what I left out (da ) was only for the use in hunting pistols only. This group is very small and from what I can tell a cut above the average gun toting hunter. Anyone that can spend $1000.00 plus for a XP 100 or a tricked out TC Encore, Then have to custom make their ammo is going too be a very small group. They tend to be detail oriented (LIKE THE HOUSE BEHIND THAT DEER)
The only problem I have with going with " Lets get what we can get now, and go back latter for something else " IS THAT NO ONE IS AROUND TO PITCH IN LATTER because they got what they wanted up front and could care less about anyone else.Gun owners, Hunters,Fishermen, and a few other groups are a great bunch of people,other then the fact that they sit on their large A@#$s and wait for some one else take up their causes. Some day the hay ride will be over for us. Even if I don't partake in another mans pastime,IF it is safe, fair and reasonable, Involves the outdoors I love, You can count on my support.
Thanks...... Buckey

Muddyboots · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2009, 10:59:30 AM »

All,
See my response today to Scibaer in Michigan Hunting forum. The proposal is designed for straight wall for the very reasons expressed so far. Rep. Matt Lori of the 59th District is presenting this on my behalf and believes it has decent shot to go through possibly this year. I know we all want the max flexibility of bottlenecks but realistically this is our best shot for rifle configuration in Zone 3 shotgun zone.

The text of the proposal is as follows:

Legal firearms are as follows:
A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
·   A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
·   A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.
·   Rifles with pistol cartridges must fire a straight-walled cartridge with a bullet of .35 caliber or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.80 inches. These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.

Please feel free to send along to your representatives as well.
Thanks,
Craig

Muddyboots · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2009, 10:35:14 AM »

All,
One more hurdle and added support. As hoped, MUCC has no issue with proposal so it is moving forward to draft soon... I hope. Just keep plugging along and I know we will get there soon.
Craig

Muddyboots · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:13:21 PM »

Just an update: Still not out of bill writing committee. Willing to bet the economic condition in MI has slowed down this bill. Right now I am not sure if it will get through this year but am still hopeful and still pressing to get it done. Confident enough to order a .460 SW from MGM in next couple days once I settle on throat specs. Will keep y'all up to snuff.
Craig

Muddyboots · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2009, 03:17:19 PM »

Another update: Just reviewed draft bill, looks fine as drafted so maybe we will get lucky after all and have it for this season. Will keep you posted. Am getting excited over possibilities.
Craig

nilescoyote · « **Reply #19 on:** September 14, 2009, 10:49:44 PM »

Anything new on this?

wiley · « **Reply #20 on:** September 18, 2009, 05:48:35 AM »

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2009-HB-5416

Sure hope this get's here soon!
Wiley

Muddyboots · « **Reply #21 on:** September 18, 2009, 12:27:20 PM »

Wiley,
You beat me to punch. The bill was posted up today on MI website. The bill number is HB 5416 and it will have to be put through the House Journal for its first reading, and then be assigned to a committee, which will probably happen next week. Still a chance for this year but depends upon how much support it gets or opposition. Everyone still believes it will go through as written.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2009-HB-5416

Please contact your representative and express support for HB 5416 and maybe we can get it through this year. Although thre are plenty of sponsors for this bill, it wouldn't hurt to get more influence.

When you talk to your representative, please consider using the following arguments:

Indiana already allows pistol calibers in rifle configuration.

The current MI regulation allows the use of a handgun with straight wall pistol cartridge.

A rifle chambered in a pistol cartridge will provide a better opportunity to bring in youth and female hunters since the recoil from these cartridges will be significantly less than a 12 gauge or 20 gauge shotgun slug.

A rifle will be more accurate that a shotgun, thus, improve deer recovery. The reduced recoil will allow both youth and female hunters to shoot more accurately as well.

A pistol cartridge that is currently allowed under MI regulations in a rifle will not significantly change ballistics of same cartridge.

There is no cost or risk to MI for this change.

There will be economic benefit for new hunters, firearms, ammunition and tourism.

Thanks in advance to all that will contact legislative representatives to support this bill.
Regards,
Craig

buckey · « **Reply #22 on:** September 18, 2009, 02:34:58 PM »

Muddyboots, Thanks for staying on top of this