Proper hand positioning

[benny123]

I didn't want to steer Grumulkin's last post off-topic by adding this question. There is a long chat below that explains the issue, but the main question is:  how are your hands positioned when shooting the Premier FA.


Here's the background:

For probably about a month I have been shooting roughly 50 rounds 5-6x a week. The point has been to use the repetition and handloading--at a reduced velocity-- to increase accuracy with the 454.

At my best I always have 1 out of 5 around 2" away from a group that probably is around 2" wide . Though the distance I am shooting half is half of what you guys shoot at, for me, this is a huge improvement.

As I felt like I was at a point where i could advance, approaching loads more in the 454 Casull territory, I loaded 20.0gr of VV N105 with a 300gr XTP. i probably shot 30 rounds but should have stopped at 10. The side of my right thumb, by the joint, was cut.  I shot 10 more rounds as I was using my lunch break to go shooting and didn't want to feel defeated by at-most a moderate velocity round. At this point my accuracy and patience suffered.  I was done.

Frustratin' because this area is still sore, and callousing. Initially the round was not a problem. It didn't bother me but once I so the blood and small fold in the skin it was hard not to be unnerved a bit. And for several days no shootin', :/

OK, I realized why I am getting cut. My right thumb is resting on the top (shelf) of the wood grip. With my left thumb tightly crisscrossed over it.

The problem, I think, with the higher velocity round is that the recoil is such that the exposed corner of the grip, that my right thumb is pressing tightly against, is digging into the side of the thumb. With the 17 or 17.5gr. of HS6 this hand placement wasn't an issue due to the mild recoil. But with a more aggressive round it has defeated me. It's still sensitive to the touch. I am hoping by Tuesday I can get back to shooting.

I liked gripping the gun is this way because it felt really secure. Before I was handling it in this way I realize that my left hand wasn't really aiding in support much. Pressing it tightly against my right and interlocking the thumbs really increased my accuracy with the HS6. Confident enough to increase the charge anyway.

I envy the shooter who is firing strong Casull rounds at longer distances. As i am shooting either 25 or 30 feet --not yards-- I have a long way to go. i can't have my hands breakin down on me.

[paul105]

Benny,

Why don't you just round off the sharp edge on the grip?  Or, if uncomfortable doing it yourself, have a gunsmith or knife maker do it for you.  My local gunsmith also makes knives and he did my .454 -- it made a huge difference at the time.

Any sharp edge on a heavy recoiling revolver will make shooting it uncomfortable at best, or worse, painful as in your case.

Paul

[benny123]

I hadn't even considered smoothing or rounding-off the grip. Your familiarity with this was comforting. But at the same time I don't want to blame the faults of my shooting on the gun. I cringe at backing down the load after working so hard to bring it up. How do others find it so easy. I feel like I have prematurely developed hands or somethin! 

Well i was planning on sending the gun to the factory perhaps I can request some sanding of the wood grip. I just have separation anxiety with it so it's gonna be a bit longer.

Anyway thanks for the tip, Paul

 

[SM]

I'm not sure if I understood correctly how you hold your FA, but I can try to tell you how I hold mine (6" .454 PG). My right hand is pretty low on the grip, but not overly so, and my left hand is supporting it in a way that the right hand's thumb is between the grip and my left hand. The thing is that my right hand thumb is pointing slightly downwards and I'm not trying to apply any serious pressure on it with my left hand. My left thumb isn't curled over the right thumb, but it's pointing forward and away from the gun. This may seem odd, but it has worked for me and since I have quite a relaxed grip my fingers aren't getting pounded by the frame of rear edge of the cylinder when I hold my hands like that.

I've shot 300 grainers going at about 1550 fps (my most used load) by using this grip and the most I've shot on one range trip is a bit over 100 without any discomfort or loosing my focus. From the day I started shooting my .454, I've let it "roll" in recoil so that it climbs to over 90 degrees up and little bit to the left (not too far from my head, to be honest).

However I've done a couple of things to make the casull a bit more easier to shoot. I tape the tip of my forefinger and when it's cold I use an old wrist supporter band (for weight lifting)  plus some thin neophrene gloves. The gloves not only help with the cold, but they keep my micarta gripped FA from rolling too much in my hands.

All this took a little time to figure out. I've had my FA for nearly two years now and I've shot about 3600 rounds through it. When I haven't shot the gun for a while and take it to the range it usually takes a couple of cylinders to get the things going. One thing that was and is still challenging is to maintain similar amount of gripping force (or lack of it  ) shot after shot in order to get those nice little groups. I've gotten a bit better at this, but it takes constant training.   

[paradocs]

I'm about like SM above; shooting 325 gr @ 1400 out of a 4 3/4" PG.  I do have my left thumb folded over my right, and also have a fairly loose grip.  I let the gun recoil freely, and can shoot 40-50 rounds without discomfort.  I have noticed a difference with a set of custom grips by Scott Kolar; his do not have any flare at the bottom; seems to reduce the "rolling" a fair degree over the factory PG grips.  I've used a glove on occasion, but don't really need it with the amount of shootng  do.  I do have a fairly small hand, which probably helps.

[Ken ONeill]

I don't know what is cutting YOU, BUT, with a heavy recoiling FA in any caliber like .454, .475L, or .500WE, it is far more likely that the splitting and cut in the web of the thumb you describe is caused by the sharp corner on the "ears" at the top of the grip frame (the corner between the side and the rear of the gun) , as the gun slides through the hand in recoil. That sharp corner can be beveled somewhat by a person using EXTREME CARE with an emory board as used on fingernails, and very carefully finished with a Scotchbrite maroon pad, since the gun is a PG  If it was a FG that edge wouldn't match the finish on the rest of the gun.
The next time you shoot, observe how much the gun slides in recoil to see if this is the cause, by determining if that corner is contacting the web of the thumb.
 I'm a firm grip shooter. The off-hand however, is simply used to support the shooting hand, not offering much pressure.
You might also try bandaids or some tape on the web of your thumb when you shoot, for the padding they offer.
.

[MePlat]

I had in my hand 20 seconds ago a FA 43/4" 454.  I hold with my pinky finger maybe a third off the grip with my thumb pointed  slightly down toward the trigger.  My thumb is not on the "shelf" or top edge of the grip and I have probably normal size hands for a 5'-10" man.  I then LAY it in my left hand (weakhand) with my thumb pointing slightly up.  I DO NOT grip at all with my weakhand.  The gun recoils away from it.  Now if I develope a "hotspot" on my hand from shooting i just go to wal-mart and buy some band-aids to use.  Cheap, quick and no problem.
Most things like this is really no problem if one uses the ole noggin with a little country common knowledge thrown in.
In hunting forget the band-aids if you use them as you are not going on an episode to shoot a ton of ammo.
This is with Micarta on my gun.
Just use common sense and I am sure that your "problem" will be solved in short order.

[Bob Baker]

Everyone’s hands shape and size is different but I will give you what I have found works well not only for me but for others I have shown it to.  Also, my hand shape and size is fairly normal, at least in my opinion it is.

Assuming your right handed, grip the grips with your little finger half on, half off the grip.  The joint of your wrist should be straight behind the gun.  You want it so your wrist joint is lined up with the sights.  If you have short fingers then you may need to move to the side some but stay as close to straight behind as you can.  Your right thumb should be pointing down slightly.  Unless you have a really big hand your thumb shouldn’t be on top of the grip.

Now place the first finger of your left hand in the crease of your third and forth fingers of your right hand.  The joint of the fingers of each hand should line up with each other.  Cup the grip between your hands and lay your left thumb over the right thumb.  You will notice this hold keeps the joints of your fingers away from the trigger guard; at least it does with my size hand.

What this hold does is reduce the amount of grip tension you need to put on the gun to control it due to your hands being interlocked.  It also gives reference points you can feel and see.  The reference points are first, the right hand little finger feels the bottom edge of the grip frame, you see your wrist straight behind the gun, your left first finger is in crease of right hand fingers and joints are alined.  Holding the gun the same every time is critical to being accurate.

This hold also sets you up to cock with your left hand.  This is important.  If you cock with the left hand you always maintain full control of the gun with the right hand.  You will also be faster and more accurate with follow up shots on a critter that is coming after you.  If you use a scope your left thumb is coming over the hammer from the side rather than over the hammer spur.

Look up the Model 97 manual on our web site.  It shows the two handed hold I described above.  The Model 83 manual also shows a two handed hold but the thumbs aren’t over lapped as they should be.

[benny123]

Thanks for the responses, guys. In the past I was holding it somewhat loosely, to allow for the "roll-with-the-recoil" suggestions, but I found I was pretty inconsistent with my shots.

Shooting at the local range often brings almost always a lot of onlookers--women and men. And it ain't for me. The size, the sound, perhaps the unfluted barrel, attracts 'em to my lane. Anyway, one of the trainers was watching me, pointing out my case of the shakes on 'follow-up' shots and suggested resetting my hands in a different way.

He showed me how to basically handle it like a vise. Really emphasizing wrapping my right hand around hand the grip tightly, then pressing the palm area of the thumb on top of the right thumb and following the palm of the left hand around tightly. For the most part both hands are parallel while the left thumb applies pressure to the top of the right thumb (in a crisscross or X pattern).

With the low-end HS6 loads my accuracy improved immediately. True, though, that the side of the left hand middle finger would get jarred a bit by the trigger guard. It was only upon shooting the increased charges that I realized the limitations to this grip--at least for me anyway.

While preparing cartridges for tomorrow afternoon, i followed Bob's instructions. i hadn't even thought of keeping my hands offset as he described. I noticed that--like he already said--this method gives you several reference points that aid in recalling the grip and accomplish the support of the right hand while allowing for recocking, trigger guard impact to the left hand fingers, and increase play for some of the recoil.

Though I was handling in my home, I could tell immediately that my right thumb was pulled away from--as Ken said --the 'ears' of the grip and my left hand fingers were out of reach for a recoling trigger guard.

i will give it a go tomorrow. Again, thanks again for all of the responses. Really appreciate it.

[benny123]

I was able to shoot about 30 rounds today. Followed the steps Bob outlined and it was apparent that my fingers would be safe from the trigger guard and recoil. Initially it felt awkward to have my left hand low and thumbs offset to the side but setting my hands as described kept them out of harms way. Thumbs well below the ear of the grip. Anticipating shooting Wednesday-Sunday to increase competence. Thanks again

[fowler]

Benny,

I got a 4 3/4" 475 FA last year and have been going through the same battles to learn to shoot it well. Consistency of grip and fighting flinching are my two big issues. I will say for where you are at on the learning scale I would say quit worrying about trying to get to 454 level loads until you are shooting light loads very well. Power is worthless without precision! Also shooting heavy recoiling loads will only add a flinch to you and exaggerate and form isses you have.

I would say go to a 255gr Keith style bullet and run standard 45 colt loads in it for a while. If you are shooting 300 rounds a week load up 1500 rounds or more and worry about getting to where you can get ALL 5 shots to touch a 3/4" square target at 10 yards. When you can go to trying to hit a 2" every time at 25 yards. But keep the loads very mild, something like 850fps, no more, it will feel weak and tame but it is the same load the 45 colt made a living on for 100 years before the Rugers started upping the power of the 45 colt. It killed anything and everything in north America when that load was the most powerful available. Shoot the same very mild load for a long while, worry about learning to shoot well before you worry about power.

If you are struggling to hit at short range then it will only get tougher at longer ranges and/or heavier loads. I have had to admit this to myself as I have been trying to run loads beyond what I can manage well in my 475, top end loads make the 454 look like a pop gun! I had great shooting all summer long and worked up the recoil ladder some and crossed into recoil levels that my body fights. I have been running a 375gr LFN at 1250fps and that for me is 100fps too much. My standard load, one that I have 400 or so loaded for right now is a 375gr LFN at 865fps. My hunting load is the same bullet at 1050fps and I am hunting elk here in Colorado not little whitetails in Texas (no offense to Texas Whitetails). I had a buddy run a 420gr LFN bullet at 1100fps and plowed through 45" of Mule deer last fall (rear hip to front quarter before exiting), you don't need high velocity to kill, you need reasonable velocity with good bullets, placed accurately to kill well.

When you can shoot your light loads very well then and only then do you work your way up the recoil ladder. You have as I did, hurried faster than your skills were ready for you to proceed. I am going back to basics and plan on shooting that one 865gr load only after elk camp is over until next year when I will ramp up for hunting again. And then go back to my mild loads. Some will think I am a wuss, who cares? I shot a honest 2.05" 5 shot group on Saturday at 50 yards from a sitting position with that 865fps load!

Oh and I find that I do best with a firm grip, but not a hard one where I am pushing the gun slightly into my left hand that is pulling slightly back. This push/pull settles the sights down and controls recoil very well without a heavy grip that is tough to be consistent with. Also remember the sights are the most important thing when shooting well. The last thing you should see as the trigger breaks is the front sight in ABSOLUTE focus, there must be a dead flat line of the rear sights to the front sight and it must be centered perfectly in the rear sight as the shot breaks. If done correctly the target will be a blob on top of the front sight. Too many people focus on the target and not the sights when the trigger breaks. You must get very basic, every time to shoot single action handguns well but it is so worth the effort when it starts to click.

[Wiking]

Fowler....

That is quite possibly the most educational post I've read on this forum! Thank you....

[henryb]

Benny,

I got a 4 3/4" 475 FA last year and have been going through the same battles to learn to shoot it well. Consistency of grip and fighting flinching are my two big issues. I will say for where you are at on the learning scale I would say quit worrying about trying to get to 454 level loads until you are shooting light loads very well. Power is worthless without precision! Also shooting heavy recoiling loads will only add a flinch to you and exaggerate and form isses you have.

I would say go to a 255gr Keith style bullet and run standard 45 colt loads in it for a while. If you are shooting 300 rounds a week load up 1500 rounds or more and worry about getting to where you can get ALL 5 shots to touch a 3/4" square target at 10 yards. When you can go to trying to hit a 2" every time at 25 yards. But keep the loads very mild, something like 850fps, no more, it will feel weak and tame but it is the same load the 45 colt made a living on for 100 years before the Rugers started upping the power of the 45 colt. It killed anything and everything in north America when that load was the most powerful available. Shoot the same very mild load for a long while, worry about learning to shoot well before you worry about power.

If you are struggling to hit at short range then it will only get tougher at longer ranges and/or heavier loads. I have had to admit this to myself as I have been trying to run loads beyond what I can manage well in my 475, top end loads make the 454 look like a pop gun! I had great shooting all summer long and worked up the recoil ladder some and crossed into recoil levels that my body fights. I have been running a 375gr LFN at 1250fps and that for me is 100fps too much. My standard load, one that I have 400 or so loaded for right now is a 375gr LFN at 865fps. My hunting load is the same bullet at 1050fps and I am hunting elk here in Colorado not little whitetails in Texas (no offense to Texas Whitetails). I had a buddy run a 420gr LFN bullet at 1100fps and plowed through 45" of Mule deer last fall (rear hip to front quarter before exiting), you don't need high velocity to kill, you need reasonable velocity with good bullets, placed accurately to kill well.

When you can shoot your light loads very well then and only then do you work your way up the recoil ladder. You have as I did, hurried faster than your skills were ready for you to proceed. I am going back to basics and plan on shooting that one 865gr load only after elk camp is over until next year when I will ramp up for hunting again. And then go back to my mild loads. Some will think I am a wuss, who cares? I shot a honest 2.05" 5 shot group on Saturday at 50 yards from a sitting position with that 865fps load!

Oh and I find that I do best with a firm grip, but not a hard one where I am pushing the gun slightly into my left hand that is pulling slightly back. This push/pull settles the sights down and controls recoil very well without a heavy grip that is tough to be consistent with. Also remember the sights are the most important thing when shooting well. The last thing you should see as the trigger breaks is the front sight in ABSOLUTE focus, there must be a dead flat line of the rear sights to the front sight and it must be centered perfectly in the rear sight as the shot breaks. If done correctly the target will be a blob on top of the front sight. Too many people focus on the target and not the sights when the trigger breaks. You must get very basic, every time to shoot single action handguns well but it is so worth the effort when it starts to click.

I have shot IHMSA in the past (not real well but there were some real knowledgeable fellers around). The above post is probably the shortest most concise description of how accurate single action revolver shooting is accomplished