Problem with RCBS X-Die instructions for my 22 Hornet

[briannmilewis]

I have decided to go the file trim and X-Die route for my 22 Hornet.

RCBS instructions say to trim the case to .020" from max case length and they will grow a few thousandths of an inch over time. This is a universal instruction no matter what cartridge you are working with. When I asked RCBS to clarify regarding the specifics of the Hornet specs in an email, they just repeat back the standard instructions.

That would mean I would trim my cases to 1.383" - case length is supposed to be between 1.393" and 1.403".

If the cases will only grow a few thou over time, doesn't it make sense to trim to minimum 1.393"?

If I do what they instruct, all my cases would be .008" shorter than the minimum.

Any clarification would really be appreciated.

[Hairtrigger]

Trim them to 1.383

[wncchester]

I think your concerns with that small case is valid.  I would trim to the "normal" minimum and go.

[briannmilewis]

I think your concerns with that small case is valid.  I would trim to the "normal" minimum and go.

Trim them to 1.383

wncchester and Hairtrigger: I appreciate the help of course. I am not meaning to be rude here, but is this advice from experience with a Hornet and the X-Die, or educated judgement?

Looks like I need some tie breakers!

[Hairtrigger]

My advise comes from experience with the X-die in 220 swift. Put that with the fact that a RCBS tech told you the same. Big or small case, if you trim off .020 from a case but keep the oal the same the case capacity does not change from trimming .020"

[briannmilewis]

My advise comes from experience with the X-die in 220 swift. Put that with the fact that a RCBS tech told you the same. Big or small case, if you trim off .020 from a case but keep the oal the same the case capacity does not change from trimming .020"

I am not worried about case capacity, I am worried about my cases being .008" less than trim length spec, there is no way they can grow to trim length over time if I trim .020" and use the X-Die.

If you take off .020" from max case length for the Swift it is fine because that just reduces the case to trim length from 2.205 to 2.185, no big deal.

Same with the 221 Fireball, the max case length is 1.400 and the trim length is 1.380, which is .020" off the trim length.

Same for 308 Win - Max 2.015" - Trim 1.995" a 0.020" difference.

By telling the user to trim .020" off max case length is just another way of saying make all your cases trim length before you use the X-Die. For the Hornet that would be 1.403" - .010" = 1.393".

[wncchester]

"... is this advice from experience with a Hornet and the X-Die, or educated judgement?"

In my case, educated judgement.  If you restrict your support to those with specific experience with a Hornet and the X die you will be short of help.  Case lenght ain't rocket engineering in which a "mistake" causes huge fire balls.

The book "minimum" isn't due to any hazard if it's exceeded, it's only a suggested rational figure, as our suggestions are.  You can cut the cases back the extra 8 thou if you choose, it sure won't cause your rifle to blow up nor will the bolt handle to fall off, etc.

[briannmilewis]

If you restrict your support to those with specific experience with a Hornet and the X die you will be short of help.

I figured the actual number of folks using the X-Die and a Hornet would be pretty slim.

In light of no hazardous situation regarding less than trim length cases. Also in light of my interpretation when RCBS says trim .020" from max case length = trim length in non-Hornet cases, I am going to trim to 1.393" to begin with. If that does not cut it, then I can always trim back to 1.383". If I trim to 1.383" first and I didn't like the results, I can't add case length back. I think this is the belt and suspenders answer.

Thanks Hairtrigger and wncchester for your help. As always, much appreciated.

[Hairtrigger]

From what I see with the Swift and X-die the case will grow between .0050 and .010 when the case is fired. The case does not grow much more than any past the .010 keeping the case at min trim length as reloaded and fired as long as the X-die continues to be used

[briannmilewis]

From what I see with the Swift and X-die the case will grow between .0050 and .010 when the case is fired. The case does not grow much more than any past the .010 keeping the case at min trim length as reloaded and fired as long as the X-die continues to be used

Your actual data is different than RCBS info, they claim the case will only grow a few thou and then stabilize. Your field data is much more useful.

I already know if I trim to 1.393", they take about two or three reloads to get to or exceed 1.403".

Based on your real world data I will start at 1.393" and then after the first firing if they are all over the place, I will trim back to 1.383" and go from there.

Thanks Hairtrigger, that is a big help. It gives me more confidence in deciding what to do after their first firing. Great.

[Graybeard]

I keep hearing that the X die works but quite honestly I just can't see how it logically can.

There are two causes of case lengthening one is of course during sizing and I'll grant them that maybe their die can help with that. But the other is during firing and no die is gonna stop that or in my opinion reverse it. Still I admit I am tempted to give it a try as I sure am tired of trimming .223 cases.

[briannmilewis]

...as long as the X-die continues to be used

Hairtrigger: Do you use the X-Die everytime you reload?

[Hairtrigger]

Yes
Lock down the adjustments and keep the die set there every time the die goes into the press.
I am a firm believer in the X-Die. The nay sayers claim it thickens the necks but RCBS info says the X-die will not cause this. I have measured a couple of Swift cases over several firings and did not see necks getting thicker so I have a reason to believe the RCBS info.

[Graybeard]

I REALLY hope you are right Hairtrigger as I do plan to order one for the .223 soon from Midsouth Shooters Supply. I don't honestly believe it at this point but am desperate to stop trimming .223 cases after every firing or at least evey other firing and it seems that's what's happening. I can't find once fired cases from any source that do not need trimming. I have thousands and all need to be trimmed. I'd sure like the next trim to be the last.

Since every single once fired case I've gotten from Federal, Winchester and Remington have been too long after the initial firing I have to assume it's not just the die stretching them and that's really all in my feeble mind I can see the X die helping with.

[Hairtrigger]

I REALLY hope you are right Hairtrigger as I do plan to order one for the .223 soon from Midsouth Shooters Supply.

Wow, you seem to put all of the pressure on

ME

[Graybeard]

No your comments had nothing to do with my decision it was already on the order list before this thread was started. I've just not decided when to make the call yet. Deep down I distrust the idea but am desperate to stop trimming .223 brass. I'm willing to make the gamble for the amount of money involved and hope it's not a bad gamble.

[84Jim]

For what it's worth, there was an in-depth article about the X dies in one of the shooting mags (Shooting Times, I think) within the past year.  I tried to find it to post here, but couldn't.  If I remember, the conclusion was that the case length grows somewhat erratically for the first 5-6 loadings, then stablizes.

I've been using X dies in .223 and 30-06 for some time, and haven't trimmed any brass since.  Also, I must have missed the part about trimming .020 below max length because I just just jumped right in with the brass I had, and never had a problem.

Jim