Author Topic: can you build a fire with 2 sticks??? (Read 1675 times)

fox fire · « **on:** November 10, 2009, 02:29:21 PM »

I was in a big chain outdoor store and they had a survival (how to )dvd, after lookin at it I got to thinkn, " wunder how many people can actualy start a fire by usin a fire bow or simalar set up?"
Just out of curiosity can some one on here realy do this? This is somthin I been wantin to learn to do for a long while just never got around to seriously try'n. Think I'll see whats here and if nothin turns up I'll look elsewher. Just wunderin.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:52:32 PM »

Yup so long as one of them is a match stick.

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2009, 01:16:45 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on November 10, 2009, 06:52:32 PM

Yup so long as one of them is a match stick.

That's exactly what I thought when I read the title......LMAO

I know how.....but it's a PITA

That's why there is always a BIC in all of my outdoor packs. And it never hurts to carry a can of sterno

jlchucker · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2009, 03:10:59 AM »

Many a cave man probably did, before they discovered flint and steel. Probably that's why we're all here today.

don heath · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2009, 03:28:40 AM »

Have made serveral fires using a fire bow...the older bushmen do it all the time, the younger ones can but most just carry a magnifying glass these days - I do note that they still carry their fire sticks in case of a cloudy or rainy day (not that we have many...but it is invarably on one of those occasions when you need a fire as oposed to 'would like a fire'. ) Using elephant dung as the tinder most of them can get a fire going in under a minute...

but it can take a week to find the right (dry) wood for stick and base...so you need to carry them with you and cannot just cast around for the right stuff if you find yourself caught out.

fox fire · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2009, 04:12:58 PM »

I was waitin on that, begged for it rite. One of thse days I'm gonna try it just for kicks, but figured that if it ever gets damp your probably screwed, plus livin in the south the humidity mite be a hinderence.
if i'm in the woods very far from the house I carry a bic,just in case.

don heath · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2009, 07:44:52 PM »

I doubt 1in 20 of the rural blacks that live near me could make a fire without a match...they are extremely efficient at making a fire with one crummy lion match, but they still need matches! Only the san (Bushmen) who are still stone age, nomadic hunters regularly make a fire without matches- they never know where they can get a replacemnt and they usually do not carry any money.

My family have always 'employed' passing bushmen to herd cattle and I use them as trackers- but most don't want money- they just want a magnifying glass, an aluminium pot, a good knife, a pretty blanket to give a girl...

Having grown up in the desert and lived with the bushmen...been a Zimbabwe parks officer for 15 years and then a Professional Hunter...I carry fire fudge, a lighter, magnesium block and striker always and usually have half a dozen boxes of matches arround the truck, plus a couple of Zippo's...

Anduril · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2009, 08:11:56 AM »

Don,

A little clarification, please.
Lion match, is that what we call a strike anywhere match?
Fire fudge, some kind of flamable paste?

Back on topic, I have done the bow & drill thing a few times for practice. But as mentioned, everything has to be DRY and the times you need a fire it's usually wet & cold.
..

fox fire · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2009, 06:22:44 PM »

WOW! interesting input Mr. Heath, this is why I like this site so much, you never who from wher and what kind of back ground they come from and what insight they have to offer. I learn somthin every time I post a question on here.

don heath · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2009, 07:47:49 PM »

Anduril - Lion matches...a uniquely african safety match...the head is so small and so little parrafin (kerosine) used on the stick it is a miracle they light at all- I used to smoke- and often found it easier to light my pipe with a magnifying glass than a lion match!

Fire fudge...Issued originally by the Rhodesian army for all sorts of occasions...

To make. Take euqal ammounts of Potasium chlorate and plain brown sugar and warm in sausepan with water until all is desloved...do not do this over an open flame or in the kitchen when mon/wife is around. - pour into a tray and allow to evaporate into a hard 'fudge'. Cut into squares and carry in plastic.

Can be ignited with any naked flame, or conc sulphuric acid. Burns at 3000º- above the melting point of steel or ignition point of aluminium... Will get wood going even in a tropical thunder storm. No longer get the little vials of Acid which were originally issued...but even a lion match will do!

Victor3 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »

I'd strongly recommend against making any fire-starter mix that uses potassium chlorate/perchlorate as the oxidizer. A google search will bring up a lot of info as to why not.

There are much safer and more stable compounds available if one feels a need for something other than common fire-starting tools.

don heath · « **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2009, 02:08:07 AM »

As per victor- yup, fire fudge is not the most stable compound and I am sure there are first world/Civilian alternatives. The US military always used C4 for the same purpose...we had (and I still have) Brit PE 4. However, plastic explosives don't burn as hot as fire fudge and certainly the Brit version (PE4) is nasty stuff to carry- the weeping nitro gives you a head ache from hell if you work with it bare handed...and it is best used for what it was designed for- blowing things up.

In any fire igniter compound I want something that burns hot enough to idry out and ignite a log of hard wood that is soaked. We have very little 'soft wood' where I live- certainly nothing that ignites as easily as pine. Kerosine doesn't burn hot enough- you need an awful lot of it to get wet hard wood burning. Vasaline is ok but works better if mixed with soap to form a napalm. Be interested to know what is actually 'allowed' in the first world (cause I am darn sure you cannot go down to the farmers supply and get a case of dynamite like I can!)

IDMoose · « **Reply #12 on:** November 16, 2009, 03:25:17 PM »

Yes, you can start a fire with using two sticks. Okay, you need 3 to make it happen. You take one long stick about 12 to 18 inches long and make a small split in both ends. It will look like a bow saw when you are done. You take a second stick and make a point on one end and wrap a string around it and tie it to the longer stick. The third stick should have a small flat place on it. You take and start a small whole one the flat part of your third stick. Take the third stick flat on the ground. With your bow saw looking stick and the one with the string wrapped around it you place the pointed end on the whole and hold your hand on it and start sawing away. This is something that we teach young boys when they are on their tail to first class in Boy Scouts.
There is more to this if you would like me to post it?

IDMoose

Victor3 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:56:58 PM »

Quote from: don heath on November 16, 2009, 02:08:07 AM

The US military always used C4 for the same purpose...we had (and I still have) Brit PE 4. However, plastic explosives don't burn as hot as fire fudge...

In any fire igniter compound I want something that burns hot enough to idry out and ignite a log of hard wood that is soaked.

Oh lovely. We've moved on from what could become a 'low explosive' (chlorate/sucrose) to high explosives now.

I'm not sure I'd ever have a need to light a wet chunk of wood by itself, but if I did (and didn't have any C4 layin' around

) I'd use a thermite fire starter. You can make these from three safe components (powdered iron, aluminum and mag), and they will light with a visco fuse.

1/2 of a 35mm film canister of the stuff produces a nice little ~4300f puddle of molten iron that should light even the most stubborn piece of soggy African hardwood.

Some safety notes on these - You want to light them and stand a good distance away until they burn down, in order to allow any water in what they're placed on to boil off. They will spatter some of the material if steam forms under them. Never place them on concrete or rocks, even if they look dry. Concrete and some kinds of rock can retain water for a long time and can explode violently if subjected to high, concentrated heat sources.

Dang.... After writing that, I'm thinking that your C4 might actually be safer!

don heath · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:11:14 AM »

Victor...have had the pleasure of using thermite to destroy interesting kit. Rhodesia issued fire fudge to us third line types (zookeepers) because a) Thermite grenades were short supply, b) white phos made too much smoke and c) fire fudge was safer and burned hotter.

Since this was a survival skills discussion...the only time I EVER light a fire myself is when something has gone wrong. Like a thunder storm that broke early before you could set up camp or vehicle broken/stuck and not going to get home and it has just rained...If it is dry, any of the rural black folk or san (Bushmen) who work for me can get a fire going soooo much more efficiently than I could and it is a pleasure to watch... I asked them what they do if they get caught out in a storm- all agreed they just spend a misserable night. Being 'cold and wet' when it is 70ºF + isn't exactly a desperate survival situation -which it would be if it were cooler...I am getting old and stiff and simply like to keep 'misserable' as far away as possible- which is why I carry the best fire lighting kit I can!

Victor3 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2009, 10:03:24 PM »

Quote from: don heath on November 17, 2009, 03:11:14 AM

Victor...have had the pleasure of using thermite to destroy interesting kit. Rhodesia issued fire fudge to us third line types (zookeepers) because a) Thermite grenades were short supply, b) white phos made too much smoke and c) fire fudge was safer and burned hotter.

Hmmm... Don Heath.... Lions & Tigers &........Elephants, Don Heath??? Love your writing. Wish there was such a thing as a 'digital' autograph I could get from you.

The same safety precautions in wet conditions would apply to both fire fudge and thermite (neither is good to get spattered on you). Thermite is safer to carry and store because it can't ignite with shock/friction and won't spontaneously ignite like chlorate compounds can if they come into contact with sulfer or phosphorus-bearing compounds (some unrefined sugars contain sulfer, by the way). Chlorate componds can also become more sensitive over time under certain conditions.

As far as heat goes, IIRC, thermite will be about 3x hotter than fire fudge. This is a thermite-welded rail I took a picture of last year. Theres no way to "fudge" on that

don heath · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2009, 11:41:07 PM »

Tha was a neat job! Remember somebody demonstrating 'brasing' using copper sulphate ? and aluminium dust years back. Mix two compounds and step back and ' whoof'... joint completed.

PS no tigers...Only ever seen a dead one!

Also a thought...the number of 'survival situations' I have found myself in has decreased remarkably since leaving government service and having decent kit to start with. A billion dollar satellite beats a million cell brain every time for navigation, I no longer fly a 1946 cub or drive a 1964 Landrover- Both of which conspired to give me many an 'adventurous', unplaned, night stop.

Victor3 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:41:12 PM »

Quote from: don heath on November 17, 2009, 03:11:14 AM

If it is dry, any of the rural black folk or san (Bushmen) who work for me can get a fire going soooo much more efficiently than I could and it is a pleasure to watch...

Dr. Heath,

To get back on-topic, could you describe how the Bushmen in your area start their fires? Do they use something like the two stick method?

don heath · « **Reply #18 on:** November 18, 2009, 07:55:49 PM »

Bushmen...One flat 'plank' about 8" long and 3" wide - usually from the poison grub commifora. This is notched at about 1" intervals along each side when it is 'first 'cut. These notches mark where each drill hole will go. This is a fairly soft wood with a very high sulphur content (The blacks use this wood for making the charcoal for gunpowder). They have a short stick from a very hard wood for the drill- usually combretum imberbi but sometimes rhodesian teak or similar. one end is rounded, the other has a grove in it for the bow string.

Place plank on piece of dry dung- buffalo or elephant. Hold plank with feet and trickle some sand into the fire hole. Un sling bow and loop string into groove. Work bow backwards and forwards for a surprisingly short time auntil some glowing embers trickle out of the 'notch' in the plank and onto the dung. Blow carefully until dung is smoldering.

The trick is in the pressure applied to the top of the drill- too much and you will simply bore a hole in your 'plank'. Too little and you will be there all day...Each notch in the plank is good for about 4-6 fires.

Also, every bushman carries a bow and arrows. He uses the same bow for hunting and fire starting. (their bows are not very powerful )

Victor3 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 18, 2009, 08:52:31 PM »

That's neat. Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to give it a try as soon as I can source some elephant dung.

Is this their preferred method, even if you were to give them something more high-tech?

Yankee1 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 18, 2009, 09:32:07 PM »

Thank You Don Heath. Did not know about the sand.
Yankee1

don heath · « **Reply #21 on:** November 18, 2009, 11:19:46 PM »

Dried cow dung makes a pretty good substitute for buffalo....

The older lads all start a fire like this. takes about 1 minute from when they start (with plank on dung etc) to open flame in the kindling.

As noted above most of the younger bushmen (under 40 ish) use a magnifying glass most of the time - they still carry the sticks in case they need to get a fire going at night or it is a (rare) cloudy day. Years ago somebody used to make a little thin brass box with a magnifying glass set into the lid. I think the idea was you kept your tinder in the box. These are higly prised. They keep their tobacco in the box and use the glass to light the pipe! At least these days it is mostly nasty Virginia tobacco not the indigenous weed they used to smoke! Most of the women carry a magnifying glass- I have never seen a san woman start a fire- that is mans job- but many of them smoke and the camp fire isn't always handy....

Victor3 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 19, 2009, 10:41:22 PM »

Like this?

don heath · « **Reply #23 on:** November 20, 2009, 02:01:20 AM »

Exactly- complete with flint striker inside for a rainy day!- The strikers were never normally sold here. No suitable flint found locally so not much use. But in combination with afire sticks, part of every upper class bushmans kit

fox fire · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:32:49 AM »

Thanx for all the input ya'll, interesting to say the least, I think I'll try using the fire bow just to see if I can pull it off.

don heath · « **Reply #25 on:** November 26, 2009, 03:22:31 AM »

Be sure to le us know a) how many blisters in the palm of your left hand you achieved before you got it right (and the callouses formed like the bushmen all have

)
b) How much effort it actually takes to learn to get it right!

I'll try to film some san making a fire with sticks on my next hunt - and I'll be in reno USA in Jan

Victor3 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 26, 2009, 11:02:56 PM »

Quote from: don heath on November 26, 2009, 03:22:31 AM

I'll try to film some san making a fire with sticks on my next hunt - and I'll be in reno USA in Jan

Dr. Heath,

Maybe filming a redneck starting a fire with sticks would be a good contrast to your bushmen (I should be in Pahrump, NV in January).

Is your camera able to record for over one hour?

don heath · « **Reply #27 on:** November 27, 2009, 03:09:14 AM »

Camera only does 3 mins...There is probably a market for teaching folk how to do this..but how the heck do I get a passport (let alone a US Visa) for somebody who's name is written ~~!ug qc!"a(if you are wondering that ~! Q &C are different clicks, " is a nasal sound unique to the San and folk from N E USA)