Civil War Rapid Fire?

[Alangaq]

I heard a story the other day that seemed more than just bit far fetched, but having been proven wrong on one or two  occasions in the past I didn’t want to declare BS and tell the guy he was full of malarkey without getting my facts strait…

Story goes, that during the civil war, some artillery men figure out that once their cannon got hot enough from repeated firing, they could forgo the fusing of the piece and swabbing of the bore, and simply ram home a sabot load while a leather gloved hand was placed over the fuse vent.  Once the leather glove was removed from the vent, the cannon would fire, and then the sequence was repeated for sustainable rapid fire…

The story implies that there is insufficient oxygen in the bore to support combustion of the fresh powder supply as long as the fuse vent is plugged…  this seems preposterous to me, and obviously dangerous in the extreme, but none the less it is an interesting STORY.  The term “hot enough” doesn’t make any sense to me either, as I would not think that a bronze or cast iron cannon could ever get hot enough to ignite powder and still maintain its structural integrity. 

I would think that a sabot load rammed on top of smoldering or burning embers from a previous shot, would detonate immediately regardless of whether or not the fuse vent was plugged or covered, but hey, like I said… I’ve been wrong before.

Additionally, the story teller claims to have witnessed this during a civil war reenactment or demonstration some years back.  He did not give a specific date or location of this supposed event…


Please note that I am in no way suggesting that I want to try this or that anyone should ever try it.  The dangers and risks associated with rapid fire and the potential for serious injury or death are, or at least should be, obvious.  My question is only if it is plausible, or possible that this story is factual.

So what say you:  Fact or Fabrication?

[KABAR2]

If the piece is hot enough to ignite the powder bag when seated it would be hot enough to ignite it anywhere along the path in the tube.
this sounds like something for mythbusters........ I don't know about you but I am not ramming a charge down an unswabed un searched
bore it's a good way to lose an arm. I doubt that anyone dealing with these guns during the war of northern agression would be foolish enough to try this method of loading.

[Cat Whisperer]

...
So what say you:  Fact or Fabrication?

He was slinging it!  (Just my opinion.)

[Cannoneer]

Alangaq,

That is an interesting story, but I think that you'd be standing on firm ground, if you decided to tell the teller of this fable that he was full of you know what. Let me ask you a question; would you be the volunteer that would ram the charge home in this barrel, because I know that I sure woudn't. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't care if it were U.S. Grant, or R.E. Lee themselves, that were barking out this order to me, I would still refuse on the grounds that they had evidently lost their sanity.

[Alangaq]

Well the part that really got me, was that he said he personally observed this kind of rapid fire technique being demonstrated at a cannon shoot or civil war reenactment…  that cannot be true!  I cant imagine any organization that would allow or condone that kind of thing!?  But on the other hand… organizations are simply a group of like minded individuals, so I suppose you could find a couple dozen reckless idiots to egg one another on…

Now I can imagine that in the heat of battle, that desperate times call for desperate measures, but this technique as described to me, seems more crazy and suicidal than simple desperation!

Unless someone can provide some sort of credible evidence that it was ever actually accomplished (more than once) I am with you guys… it’s a big load of hooey

[RocklockI]

i cant believe anyone would do this on purpose   , in the civil war .....or any other time .

with every other way known to man trying to kill you in a battle.....why add one more ?  
gary

eta wouldnt the 'gunner' get rolled over by his own carriage ?

[subdjoe]

As an aside, while trying to run down this story, which I have heard several times and it never made sense to me, I ran acoss this: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/07/civil_war_cannon_in_lowell_nee.html

Anyhooo ... the story as I have heard it is usually associated with Gettysburg.  And more of a just happened than a planned thing. It would be too uncontrolable.  I can see if an ember was in the vent that it MIGHT flame up enough to ignite the charge when the vent was uncovered.  Maybe.  I have never been able to track this down to a primary source.  

The story implies that there is insufficient oxygen in the bore to support combustion of the fresh powder supply as long as the fuse vent is plugged… This part is totally false.  The oxidizer is in the powder. There would not be enough through the vent to support the combustion of the powder anyway.  Not to mention the jet of flame that comes out the vent.

I have seen credible sources refering to sustained fire of 5 to 7 rounds a minute for periods of 5  minutes or so.  But that would be a measure in extremis to try to break up or stop a charge whn yours is the only unit availble, or you are buying time for the regimetn ot corps to get out of  Dodge.  Not only is it very dangerous, but it is also very wasteful of munitions.

[gary michie]

Hi:
I've been  a reenactor for 8 years here in the northwest as a cannoner and have heard storys like this before; there is some paper work  on a battle or two implying that rapped fire was used.BUT we all know about Gov. paper work. With a oxidizer in gunpower stoping the vent only keeps the embers from flaring up not putting them out, they are still there.This would be very bad news for anyone ramming the load. If you did get away with it and didn't blow up the gun by  leaving a gap between the end of the breech and load, there is a good chance you would send the ram down range. No ram, not good.

[brokenpole]

The stories we hear never cease to amaze me.

From what I could find, it takes a temperature of 572 degrees F (300 degrees C) to ignite bp.  If the internals of the barrel are at or above 572 degrees I can only imagine the temperature on the outer surfaces of the tube.  Wonder if the person ramming the rouond would suffer burns from the surface of the gun?  I underatnd that the temperature profile across the metal of the tube would be effected by things such as outside temperature and wind speed it seems it would still be rather warm.

Personally, I would tell the person relating the story that you ever see someone attempting this that you will be able to find me in my truck driving away from said demonstration...at a rather high rate of speed.

You might suggest to the individual that they do the same.

[p51]

I’m no scientist but like many of you, I’ve been around my fair share of artillery going off. For any tube to set off the charge just from the heat, it’d have to be hot enough to do so as soon as you first put the charge into the muzzle. It’d go off as soon as you started to ram it home. The amount of oxygen wouldn’t change it either way. Besides, even if you threw the same charge into a camp fire, it’d take a moment for it to reach flash point and you KNOW said camp fire must be hotter than any bore could get!
The only thing I’ve seen to discuss hot tubes is melting down .50 caliber MG barrels from sustained fire. I once had a couple of M2 HMGs our arms room was going to turn in, so we took them out for night firing to see how badly we could cook them. They’d glow and eventually it jammed the mechanism, but it never got hot enough to cook off rounds in the belt (not the same thing, I’ll grant you) or any prematurely in the chamber. It was the bolt that seized eventually from the heat. I’d think we could all agree that the barrels in that case HAD to be hotter than any muzzle loading gun would ever get under firing conditions.

[Alangaq]

Well… as the chaps on that tv show like to say “boys.. this one is busted”

Thanks so much for all the input and analysis!