Author Topic: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday  (Read 2551 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2009, 09:08:26 AM »
YES THE QUESTION IS WHY DIDNT THEY MAKE IT AS THE ORIGINAL WAS DONE

but Im sure that you will be able to repair it almost invisible
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Zulu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2477
  • Honor is a gift a man gives himself.
    • Wood & Ironworks
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2009, 09:54:58 AM »
When I make my axle housings for my wooden guns I use solid stock and turn the ends on my lathe.  It is easy and original (except maybe the lathe part).  But I agree about resetting the dowel.  I think you will get an excellent bond with Titebond.
Zulu
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline thelionspaw

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Gender: Male
  • "HALLOWED GROUND" by RRC
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2009, 11:13:11 AM »
John,
That's the most cockamamie design I can imagine.

Does the anchor bolt drop through the axle tree and pass through the spindle to a nut on the outside?  It appears that the broken-off nub goes deep enough to pass the mounting bolt.

Personally, I use Titebond II in some places but not all places..

Don't muss-up the fuzzy ends and don't pick-out the ruptured bits before you have a solid plan of attack..

If you can turn a dowel to be the length of the inserted part plus enough to permanently fix in a newly drilled pocket in the axle, I might consider doing that. Score the inserted part and use Titebond there. Clamp it end to end so it doesn't expand out of the new pocket.

Otherwise, use a fat double ended screw fastener to connect the the two original but separated pieces.

After a day or so, when it is cured and the expanded glue is trimmed, insert it into from whence it came, with a top wrap of wax paper. Then white glue whatever surface you can get at on the ruptured bits (poke it in with a toothpick) and reassemble the puzzle the best you can. Then wax paper, wood block top and bottom and C-clamp. Really screwing down may realign and compress all the loose bits.

The wax paper will prevent wood to wood and glue contact.

If you opted to use the original nub with a double ended fastener, the method is the same. However, I suspect the carriage anchoring bolt may have to pass through either the dowel or the repair with the screw. Either way, you will have the drill a pilot hole through.

It's really difficult to say, without having the work in hand.

I would stare at it for a while before starting.

If you don't feel up to it and would like me to have a go at it before I start my build on the E/T of November 1st, ship the tree, axle and nub to me. I am going under ground then and will not surface until Ground Hog Day.

Puxatawny Rich



Protect Freedom of Speech; to identify IDIOTS!

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2009, 11:33:17 AM »
Rich,

I was thinking about you when I opened the box and saw the axle; I also think it can be repaired without anybody being able to notice it unless they really knew where to look. I've got "Titebond II," and "Gorilla Glue;" which do you think would be better? I was going to glue the pieces on the axle bed first, then let that cure, drill out the piece of oak dowel rod thats still in the axle tree part, and then just reglue the right size dowel rod into both the bed & tree, the way that it was originally consrtructed; no problemo!

What I don't get is; why did they make it this way in the first place, why not fashion the axle the way in which the real period carriage's axles would have been (that is cut & carved out of a sinle solid piece) constucted?

If it is waterproof use titebond.  Don't use Gorilla Glue for this type repair.  Gorilla glue expands as it cures and force gaps apart.  Gorilla glue is strong and useful to gill gaps, but not contact gluing.

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2009, 11:51:39 AM »
dont you think it could be used if its clamped enough ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline intoodeep

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2009, 01:51:12 PM »
If it is waterproof use titebond.  Don't use Gorilla Glue for this type repair.  Gorilla glue expands as it cures and force gaps apart.  Gorilla glue is strong and useful to gill gaps, but not contact gluing.

 DD,

 I'm just curious. I know the above statement is true with the original Gorilla glue. But, does this also happen with the new Gorilla wood glue? I've thought about using it but, was not sure how well it works. I've always used the Titebond.
If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline thelionspaw

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Gender: Male
  • "HALLOWED GROUND" by RRC
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2009, 03:01:10 PM »
If possible, It's a good idea to clamp ANY glue. Tight contact has to be created with ANY glue to maintain a good bond.

Titebond makes a Poly glue that is supposed to expand (like Gorilla) and it's less expensive. Gorilla is a good glue to use but it tends to be pricey.

When I say that Titebond II will expand, I am referring to the grove/score marks I make that create anchor points. While the glue is still workable, your pieces can slip/slide with the glue flowing/expanding out of the joint.

When I do a hollow decoy, I use poly to make it water-tight which is different from water-proof.

You can go nuts with all the better; best, new, new & improved; amazing; use me glues.

Bring a chair to WallyWorld; sit in the aisle and read all the labels. It may take you their 24 hour open time. ::)
Protect Freedom of Speech; to identify IDIOTS!

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2009, 03:25:59 PM »
I just went and got the bottle of Gorilla glue, says right in the instructions will expand 3-4 times. Just says Gorilla glue copyright 2007 and bought within the past year- June or July of this year. UPC Code 52427 500002 and  stampe lot number 070905 Even clamped it left a prominent glue line seam. It is strong, but not worth the aggrevation.  I c-clamped with several c-clamps two pieces oak together, and the glue oozed out just like it says it will and move sideways under the clamps.

Won't be used in my shop again.   

Offline intoodeep

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2009, 03:44:25 PM »
DD,

 Thanks for the info. But, I don't currently have any of the products. Does the bottle look like the one below? This is the wood glue I have seen at the local stores.

If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2009, 04:01:12 PM »
Standard 2 part epoxy (the long dry stuff) should work fine, but if the axle stubs are just glued into the block of wood forming the axle

this will be prone to breakage again.  If it was mine I would consider one of two options,

1) drill through the entire square axle and use a steel rod for the axle of wheel hub  dia. 

2) if you want to keep the wood dowels for the wheel hub intact I would think about boring through
    the whole thing for say a 1/2" threaded rod and use epoxy bedding compound used in rifles to secure it.


this way if it was ever dropped the wheels wouldn't come flying off.


Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline thelionspaw

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Gender: Male
  • "HALLOWED GROUND" by RRC
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2009, 06:13:50 PM »
1). If Gorilla Glue oozes out.........you used too much. The instructions are explicit. "Thin
     layer".

2). Yup! What Allen suggests, "1/2" threaded rod", is basically what I wrote about, "double
     ended screw". maybe you're not familiar with it?  I think it will work better than epoxy 
     bedding a threaded rod.

They come in various lengths and diameters.  Between the two pointed screw ends, there is a space to vice grip it. They make another model with a screw on one side and a threaded rod/bolt end on the other end.

Drill under sized pilot holes in the two pieces to be joined, so that you have enough wood left to bite into. I would only drill the hole as deep as the screw end that is going into it, so that you don't drive it in any deeper when you screw in the other piece.

That's the path of least resistance. You are working with what you alredy have in wood without fashioning new pieces and the drilling is for short pockets; not extensive lengths.

I might add, that "if it was ever dropped", you deserve a swift kick in your dupa; boychik! :(
Protect Freedom of Speech; to identify IDIOTS!

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2009, 06:39:18 PM »
... why did they make it this way in the first place, why not fashion the axle the way in which the real period carriage's axles would have been (that is cut & carved out of a single solid piece) constucted?

Probably cheaper this way.  Is the axle hardwood or pine or fir?  Should be hardwood but the grain looks like Douglas fir.  If so, the dowel is to strengthen the spindle (at least in theory.)  I made my spindle from steel tubing which goes the whole way across.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2009, 06:43:44 PM »
DD,

 Thanks for the info. But, I don't currently have any of the products. Does the bottle look like the one below? This is the wood glue I have seen at the local stores.



Nope, that's  not it. This is it.


I just went to the Gorilla glue webpage and found this link. http://www.gorillaglue.com/information/firstaid.aspx Now that's scary

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2009, 06:46:56 PM »
1). If Gorilla Glue oozes out.........you used too much. The instructions are explicit. "Thin
     layer".


How do you identify a thin layer of something that is going to exand 3-4 times over the next hour. 

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2009, 08:00:04 PM »
 Boom J,

 What a beautiful gun. If your house burns down (what was your address again?) and you need to sell your cannon for hotel money, I hope you'll notify me that it's for sale.

 On the damage, I think if it were mine I'd make new one-piece oak parts front and rear. The way they did it looks too flimsy to support such a heavy barrel other than for sitting on a shelf. A lathe would be nice, but I've made similar square-to-round features using just a hacksaw (at the transition), belt sander and files.

 Please post pics after you get all traces of pootina off of the barrel  ;D
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline dan610324

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Gender: Male
  • bronze cannons and copper stills ;-))
    • dont have
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2009, 12:42:37 AM »
why not sand blast it and paint it black   ;D
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline little seacoast

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 573
  • Gender: Male
  • Let them get just a little closer...
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2009, 01:44:33 AM »
For repairs such as you are making the Tite Bond II glue when used and clamped properly will make a repair STRONGER than the original wood. You can get a brown formulation that will be pretty much invisible when dry on darker woods, just wipe off any squeeze out with a damp cloth before it dries.  I've used this stuff for years in furniture making and have never had a glue line failure- the wood will break first.  Regards, LS
America has no native criminal class except Congress.   Sam Clemens

Offline thelionspaw

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Gender: Male
  • "HALLOWED GROUND" by RRC
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2009, 05:21:56 AM »
Doug,
The answer is, "experience", which happens with, "practice".

Adding expanding glue to wood, is like adding powder to a charge. You know when to quit.

You already know it's going to expand and obviously spread so you make seperated fine lines and begin significantly away from the edge. It will blend together to meet between the lines.

Simple!

LS:  You're right. I've glued stock at a 90< angle and couldn't break it apart with a hammer. It had to be chiseled. I'm retrofitting my ice spearfishing box to accept a cannon barrel and had to remove the partitions with a hammer and chisel.

"Why?" you might well ask, am I taking apart my box?.  Simple! Three times swimming in the ice after I pushed the season every year and the shanty went under is quite enough for a senior citizen.

I used to work for an old German who used to tell me, "Riiiiichid. Vee grow to soon olt und too late shmaat". It took me 70 years to understand what Carl told me 50 years before.

GGaskill: That's oak. Take a closer look.  Also, I can't imagine that the extra work involved would allow it to be cheaper to produce. The design doesn't make any sense. Wait 'til the designer hits 70.

rc
Protect Freedom of Speech; to identify IDIOTS!

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2009, 06:06:13 AM »
Doug,
The answer is, "experience", which happens with, "practice".

Adding expanding glue to wood, is like adding powder to a charge. You know when to quit.

 

Actually it looks like the correct answer is use the right glue, obviously, I didn't.

I agree with the others the best fix is a through axle.

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2009, 09:23:14 AM »
I used the ape glue on a project once I was not impressed,

that is why I recommend epoxy much more controllable

and much better results.a plus with epoxy unlike wood glues is you can

mask them with leather dies so they tend to disappear/blend in.

I have done a lot of antique gun restoration and when done right you

are hard pressed to find where the seams are or in some cases where the old

wood ends and the new wood begins, but that's where experience and art take over.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2009, 02:02:47 PM »
I want to thank everyone for their advice, and comments, especially Richard the Kindhearted, who actually offered to repair the damage himself.
Richard has also got a good eye for wood: All the wood used on the carriage is oak, and that includes the dowel. I also don't think it was cheaper to make the axles this way, if anything it seems more involved than cutting the axle bed, and then turning the axle arms on a lathe. This "Valley Cannon Works" certainly had someone that knew how to turn wood, look at the rammer's head. I also don't think this construction method made the axle arm weaker; to the contrary this is probably stronger than if the bed and arm were made of a solid piece of wood (whatever amount of pressure caused the oak to splinter like that, I'm pretty sure it would also have cracked the arm off an axle made of a solid piece of wood). I'm wondering if they did it this way for accuracy: By that I mean the axle arms could be pefectly centered on the axle bed, and this would prevent the carriage trucks from being uneven when resting on the ground (a problem that many of us who have made a four truck naval carriage from scratch may know about firsthand).
The reason that I'm probably going to eventually make the axles from a solid piece is because it would be authentic to the way the real axles were made, and I'm also going to drill the holes in the arms at an angle so the lynchpins are raked back.
For now I'm going repair it kind of like R.C. recommended, only change the order of which piece is glued first. I'll glue the bed that's splintered first, (using Gorilla glue) because I want the expanding nature of this glue to fill in any voids left between all the pieces when I try and work them back together. There are also
cracks down the center of the bed that you can't see in the pic, so I'm going to have to place two small nails on either side to open the split up, and then I can work some glue in the splits. Then I'll clamp it all up, (good idea on the waxed paper R. C.) and let it dry completely, and just clean up the dried overflow on the inside of the bed with a drill bit. From here on out, I'll switch to theTitebond II glue, the next step being to glue a new oak dowel into the bed, and let that cure. Then after I drill the remaiming bit of dowel out of the axle arm, I'll be able to gauge how much of the dowel to saw off to get a tight fit between the bed face,and inside face of the axle arm; then glue, clamp, wait, unclamp, sand a little, and refinish. 
I don't want to go the route of having a steel rod all the way through the axle bed, but even if I did, the two key bolts coming down from the tops of the cheeks, that go through the axle bed, and are secured with nuts, would make doing this a little problematic.

Intoodeep; I disagree with some of the things that have been said about "Gorilla Glue," I think that it's great glue for specific purposes. "Gorilla Glue" is just the brand name for one of the many  brands of polyurethane glues that are now on the market. Because there is now competition, this glue is now less money, but yeah it's still high; I recently bought some "Elmer's," and they call theirs "Ultimate Glue." I think this kind of glue is tough stuff, it really bonds things together, including wood to metal, and it is especially good when you have gaps to fill.
Here's a good example of using tha wrong kind of glue for the wrong purpose, and causing oneself a great pain in the butt for no reason whatsoever. I built this carriage ( I'm still working on the carriage, and the barrel) for an iron 10-inch cannon that I picked up at a flea market, and I decided to use Gorilla G. on all the wood joins. I quickly brushed water on the all the surfaces to be glued, then applied the glue as fast as I could, then put all the pieces together, and clamped everything up. I had used this kind of glue once before, so I knew it was going to expand. For the next hour or so, I held this carriage, and as the glue expanded I wiped, and wiped, and wiped, and............... As this stuff starts to cure it gets thicker, gooier, and best of all more sticky. I had this stuff all over my fingers, hands, and anything else I happened to touch, this was a genuine comedy of errors. Needless to say, I ruined the finish on the wood where I was rubbing; luckily I had used "Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil Gunstock Finish," and I could reapply it with a cotton rag, by gently covering the areas where I had dulled the finish. The pics I've posted can be enlarged with good clarity if you save them, and you'll be able to see where the Gorilla Glue seeped and hardened between joins, (look at where the front transom joins the top of the axle bed) even though I began wiping the glue as soon as I was done clamping.
Now, as for gluing the red brass (euphemism for copper plumbing pipe) tyres on the trucks, polyurethane glue is perfectly suited to the task. I used it on these trucks and tyres, and also on the tyres of another naval carriage that I recently finished.
The last pic is of the quoin of this carriage, and I glued the brass wear plate to the bottom of the quoin (also the pinned brass stop) with "Brownells Acraglas Gel," which is a rifle barrel bedding compound (like KABAR mentioned) that is fantastic for adhering metal to wood when you can't use fasteners. I have a story about what that brass plate was made from that I'll tell another time.
Victor; I made the axles for this one the same way you did, with rasps, files, and sanpaper. Hey, if our house burns down, we just might decide to pack it in, and head out west, if I manage to save the cannon it'll be your payment for putting us up for a stretch. ;D        







RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: A shiny naval gun arrived at my house yesterday
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2009, 06:36:32 PM »
Boom, I too was checking that cannon out. You got a great price on it, most brass/bronze cannon on e-bay are either crap from Borneo, or dinky little things.  Nice tube.  I'd hate to tell ya what my 30" , 1-1/2" bore bronze gun cost me on E-bay 6 years ago! But then again, its one of the nicest barrels I have ever seen.   Yours is close! 

Good luck with her.



CaptTHighbiter,

As a young man I can remember just smiling when elders would tell me that as a person ages time seems to pass more quickly, but now as age advances on me, I think that they were in all probability, making an accurate observation, so lets not add any more unnecessary speed to the already fleet passage of time;;D  I think that your purchase of this cannon probably occured around three, maybe three and a half years ago. I remember this gun when it originally came up for auction on eBay with its location given in Britain. I don't know if you saw the first auction, but the original starting bid was something like five-thousand USD, then when that auction ended with no bidders, it was lowered to 4,500, and again no bids, then 4,000 etc., etc., etc., until it was finally offered for $1,000.00, which (if memory serves me correctly) is what you got it for. Once again, if my memory is right; didn't you have to just about double that figure, when the shipping charges were added to the bill? Even so, two grand for a 30-inch bronze barrel of that bore size is still a very good price, even for over three years ago.   
Now, I'm going to be honest with you; If my gun was 30-inches long, and had an inch and a half bore, the corners of my smile would be ending in my ear canals, but I still like the profile of mine, much more. :D 
     
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.