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Author Topic: Is Hardball Hard Enough?  (Read 1121 times)

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Offline skarke

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Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« on: October 13, 2009, 05:24:36 AM »
I've been shooting straight WW out of a 9 mm w 4 grains of 231 (about 1000 fps) w 124 lee rn traditional groove (not tumble lube) bullets, and am getting leading in both 9mms.  I bought a couple of hundred lbs of 6 2 (hardball) to try.  Best I can tell, this should give me a BH of about 16.  You guys think that this will help with the leading?
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 05:42:26 AM »
Well Hard ball or even just jacketed bullets have the lead in the base.  that lead is what is causing your gun to foul.
try hollow points.  the lead is at the front.  the jacket covers the base and does not leave lead fouling.
You can also try the totally plated bullets.
I have had good luck with them.
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Offline Axehandle

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 06:53:24 AM »
Sounds to me like your bullets are the wrong size.  Have you slugged your barrel to check the diameter? 
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Offline skarke

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 01:08:17 PM »
No, I have't slugged it.  I may fatten up a bullet and drive it through, and see what I have.  They are .356 sized and lubed, and they cast at .3565.

It seems that 356 is pretty common on US made guns (rugers).  WW, as cast, are basically pure lead.  Water tempering aside, they are still soft enough to cut with a finger nail.

I'm also gonna try some hardball, see what happens.
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Offline Frank V

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 02:25:36 PM »
A correctly fitting bullet is just as important as metal hardness, maybe more.
Frank
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Offline sgtt

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 01:58:51 AM »
Not only the fit but, the quality of the lube.
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Offline DCT

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 07:55:56 AM »
When I shoot lead in my 9's, I switch to 700X powder and don't have any leading problems up to about 1150 or 1200 fps.
I use 231 for all jacketed bullets.
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Offline Gohon

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 04:41:21 PM »
Quote
WW, as cast, are basically pure lead

Not true.........pure lead will have a hardness of 5-6 BHN and air cooled WW will be at 10-12 BHN, almost twice the hardness.  99% of the time when leading appears from cast such as air cooled wheel weights the cause is improper bullet fit or failure of the lube.  I'm pushing a 158 grain cast SWC bevel base cast from WW with 2% tin at 1500+ in a .357 mag rifle with no leading what so ever.  I shoot them as dropped from the mould at .360 and LLA lube.
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Offline skarke

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 07:34:18 PM »
This is true, I too shoot 158 ww from a 38 sp 627 v comp with 3.8 231 with no leading after several hundred rounds.  I think that you guys are onto something with the bullet size, I'll get back with you after the weekend.  In your opinion, to shoot 356 bullets, the barrel should be, say, 355 in the grooves?
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2009, 12:01:02 AM »
Skarke-

At 1000 fps, wheel weight lead is all you need.  Use a soft lube.  If the lube is so hard it is staying in the groves of fired bullets, it is to hard.  Slug that barrel, and check the cast dia. of the bullet you are using.  You may be suprised.  A lot of 9mm barrels slug out at 357, or more.  Depending on how your chamber is cut, you want to use the bullet as close to what your barrel slugs at as possible, and still have it be able to chamber.  Some 9mm's are big in barrel diameter, and snug it the chamber - a bad combo for accuracy.  It is a popular misbelief that leading is always caused by to soft a bullet.  Not true.  Often it is a bullet that is cast hard, but is an undersize fit in the barrel, causing the problem.

Larry
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Offline skarke

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 12:18:46 PM »
OK, the barrel slugs at .3563.  The bullets lubed and sized to.356, and as cast 3563 to .3565.  I'm gonna try softer lube (white label 2500, which has been great in my 357 w 38 sp), and a .357 sizer (so as not to shrink the bullet as cast). What do you guys think?

Also, I noticed that Lee makes a 125 gr 358 with a sort of rounded ogive and a flat meplat, the 358-125-RF. Does anybody have any experience with this bullet in the 9s? I can size it to .357, but I'd like to have other's opinions.

I really appreciate ya'lls advice.
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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 10:26:30 PM »
The bullets as cast are close enough to your slugged barrel that they should work.  You can try a harder mix, that might help.  So might the softer lube.  A little leading is normal, and some barrels have minute flaws, and just lead, no matter what.  An option might be trying a gas check bullet.  Most of my reloading for the 9mm has been with jacketed slugs.  I have shot thousands of dept. issued lead round nose reloads, but never really measured or anylized them - they just plain worked.  One Glock I had, had a hard time with this ammo, but this gun had a tight chamber that wouldnt allow the cambering of rounds loaded with bullets cast to the barrels grove diamiter.

Larry
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 11:43:38 PM »
like big easy said the harder alloy and the softer lube may help. Bottom line though is if everytihng is right ww should be working. In the 9s ive had my best luck sizing to 357 and some guns have even liked 358 but they dont allways run reliably. the powder your using can effect leading too. If you want to experiment try a little slower burning powder and dont try to get the absolute fastest velocitys possible. Back off a hundred fps and see if that helps. Also in a semi auto if the trip accross the feed ramp or into the the chamber tears up your bullets you can get leading from that. Is the leading the whole lenght of the barrel or at the start of the barrel or at the end? One more thing with the 9mm is that it can be a bugger to load and its really easy to get your bullets started in your cases a bit crooked. Take time to insure that the bullet is started straight into the seating die. Also have you checked your barrel. Is it possible it could stand to be lapped. 9mms arent designed as target guns and sometimes the quality control on barrels is a bit iffy. Bottom line in a semi auto gun and this has as much to do with accuracy as with leading is ive had my best luck with harder bullets. Even straight linotype or water dropped ww. They tend to not deform on feeding as much and ive allways had better luck with softer lubes. Lars 2500 should work great. Problem with the softer lubes in a semi auto though is they tend to foul the gun faster. What ive come to use in semi autos is a medium consistancy lube for a compromise. Lars corduba lube seems to work in about anything and tends to foul a little less then an alox based lube.
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Offline skarke

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 01:29:54 AM »
Lloyd (aka obiwan),

O master of the mysterious alloys.  I shall start at the beginning, and keep you posted.

Thanks, Dan
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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline docmagnum357

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 03:38:07 PM »
I have always, always, always had trouble in 9mm with leading.  what absolutely worked was going to 4227 powder, wich is too slow for a 9mm.  All i could get in the case wouldn't make it lead.  It also fed about 2/3 of the time, so i could have gone down on my spring if i was serious about using that load.  I was not.  750 fps , 115 grain bullet.  It was a wonder it cycled at all. But this proves slower powder is a definate step in the right direction.

Something to think about, 9mm almost always have a very fast twist, around 1/ 9, as opposed to a 1/ 16 of a 38 special. 9mm bullets almost always have a very short bearing suface as opposed to a 38. They just won't feed otherwise.  the nose would be too abrupt.  So......I have found that a 147 grain, or a round nose made for a 38 at about 140 grains (this part is a Wag) would have a lot more bearing surface.  That is the first thing.  Second, is like Lloyd says( we all say that a lot around here, don't we) 9mm aren't target pistols, so they probably don't get the level of finish that say, a good S& W model 14 or 15 would. A 115 grain bullet at 1200-1300 feet per second doesn't need as much twist as a 158 grain semi wadcutter from a 38 at 800 feet per second.  Required twist is based on bullet length and speeds, and 9mm bullets are long for the caliber because of feeding issues.... But not that long. I would give a lot for a 1/20 twist .355 barrel for my Cz 75b. It would stabilize the lighter 9mm bullets fine, and probably the 147s , too. STRIPPING  Is what happens whern we accelerate a bullet with low tensile strength very quickly(via fast powder) to an RPM that is too fast.  Wonder why Gain twist went away with lead bullets for the most part?
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Offline docmagnum357

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 03:44:58 PM »
If i were to design a "perfect" barrel for my (mm, it would have a gain twist that started at 60/ 1 and finished at 20/ 1, and was slick as a mole, and was choke bored by about .001."  I would settle for a good button rifled 1/ 20 that i could lapp to a choke bore.  Also, one final thing, the grooves in a 9mm aren't as deep or as wide as , say, a 38 special.  this also makes it easier to "strip"  What we see a lot of time with the (mm isn't conventional leading, I.E. Blow by on a too small bullet, or lube failure, or just tooo much pressure on the base, but stripping.

If we tried the same loads in a 1/7.5 ar 15 that shoot well in a cvivilian .223, with a 1/12 or 1/14 twist, we would see the same thing.Remember the old Hornady SX bullets?  softer, thiner jacket, wouldn't work too well in an ar with the fast twist barrel.

 just my 2 cents worth, but I t seems right
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Is Hardball Hard Enough?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 01:22:45 AM »
skarke:  I think you have a powder/bullet combination problem.  Your bore slugs to .3563 and your bullets are sized to .356 - there's one problem right there.  Your bullet needs to be sized to about 1/1000th over bore so it obdurates (or fills the bore) when pushed out of the case by the burning powder - if it is smaller than the bore, burning gases will both melt away a little of the base of the bullet and blow past it, creating leading in the barrel.  If the bullet is large enough to fully take to the bore this does not happen unless the powder you are using burns too fast and hot for the hardness of the bullet. 

I like 231 but don't use it often with cast slugs unless the bullets are cast hard.  I would try a slower burning powder, like Unique and see  how that works for you.  I have played around with 158-160 gn rn slugs in the 9mm and loaded them over Unique without any problem.  I think I still have some 121-125 gn rn slugs that I can give a try over Unique, but not until the weather wqarms up so I can find my brass......... HTH.
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