Author Topic: Strength of the Taurus Raging Bull (Read 5169 times)

Dragoon · « **on:** February 15, 2003, 04:37:23 PM »

I have seen some comments claiming that you should not shoot anything other than factory ammo in various different revolvers including the Taurus Raging Bull. I personally own three RBs and IMHO these statenments are false. However, I will readily admit that I am not a gunsmith nor a metallurgist so I was hoping that someone in the know could post some facts related to this.

I doubt the reliability of the information being cited to back up the above claim. This information is mainly the fact that many reloading manuals list hot loads (for the Colt .45 for example) and state that these should only be used in modern Ruger Revolvers. Knowing how the gun magazines often print what the manufacturer offering the most money wants them to print I have to say that I put very little faith into these statements from the reloading manuals (I do build loads up slowly and safely though).

I also contacted Buffalo Bore Ammuniton to see if it would be safe to use their heavy .45 Colt loads in my Taurus revolver and they replied that any model which also is offered in .44 magnum could handle the loads (That is not a direct quote but I believe that I may still have this email I'd hace to look for it) I also saw one poster say that his Taurus manual said not to use anything but factory ammo or it would void the warranty. My guess is that all firearms manuals say this as a protection from lawsuits. I do not personally own a Ruger Super Redhawk but can anyone who does tell me if their manual boldly states that it is safe to use "hotloaded ammuntiiton" in them? I find that very hard to believe but if it is in fact true then I will stand corrected.

Can anyone comment on the strengths of the metals used in the Raging Bull versus the Super Redhawk?

I would find any information regarding this matter to be both valuable and interesting.

Thank you,
Dragoon
(AKA MikeT)

thomas · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2003, 05:14:42 AM »

***********

Dragoon · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2003, 06:40:17 AM »

Many people reload and many reloaders "hotload". There are also custom ammunition manufacturers who produce so called "hotloaded" ammunition. One of those is Buffalo Bore Ammunition whom I had contacted before as stated in my original post.

The point of my post is simply to address the one or maybe two persons whom have been making statements that it is OK to use these loads in Ruger models but not in anything else. I am simply trying to lay this misconception to rest. One post actually quoted the Taurus manual as saying that using reloaded ammunition would void the warranty and by saying this he was implying that the Ruger manual said no such thing so I am asking those who own Rugers if the manual actually states that it is safe to reload and to also use higher than factory pressures because I find this very difficult to believe yet this is what scertain people have been posting.

Reloading may well in fact void the warranty in a firearm but how does that make reloadng an unsafe practice? Almost everyone that I know who owns a .454 reloads for it.

You also may be intersted to know that the industry maximum pressure for the .454 Casull was set at 65,000 psi in 1998 but that most reloading manuals as well as factory ammuntion keep the pressures down to 45,000 psi. If 65,000 is the actual industry maximum then loading to these pressures does not even qualify as "hotloading" in the first place :-D

I personally don't think that there are too many people who actually "hotload" for the .454 Casull but many people do in fact hotload the .45 Colt This was what the oriiginal posters were referring to and whom I am disagreeign with. They were pointing to special loads in certain reloading manuals (like Speer and Hogden) that stated they were only to be used in Ruger or Contender models. I was originaly pointing out that Taurus had at one point marketed a Raging Bull in .45 Colt and was asking why on earth anyone felt that a Raging Bull could not handle some measely "hotloaded" .45 Colt loads.

These manuals specifically list the Ruger BlackHawk and SuperRedHawk and since I know that they are gunsmiths and many reloaders on these forums I am simply looking for some facts to back up or refute these statements.

I certainly am not recommending that anyone simply load up a round at maximum pressure and head out to the range. (I like my hands and eyes just as much as the next guy) You should always follow safe reloading practices. But if you do work up your loads safely then I do not forsee anyone running into problems.

Thanks,
-Dragoon

L-Roy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2003, 10:34:29 AM »

Shooters,
The Ruger RH/SRH is not the strongest revolver on the market. BUT, it is strong enough for any SENSIBLE reload. So are the others, when sensible loadings are followed.

KN · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2003, 01:22:00 PM »

Just out of curiosity, who do you think does make the strongest revolver? Lets keep this comparison fair, 44s to 44s, or 454s to454s, leave the BFRs designed for 444,45/70,450 out if the equation. KN

JohnK · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2003, 12:38:32 PM »

I think we could say that Freedom Arms makes the strongest revolvers among the calibers you listed.

I don't have a Raging Bull but I have spoken with several people who do have them. They all feel they're as strong or stronger than a Blackhawk. Not that that's proof of anything, just second hand comments. I have fired one of the older 44 Mag Taurus revolvers many times, I wouldn't worry a bit about firing "Ruger only" loads in it if it were chambered for 45 Colt.

BER007 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2003, 08:39:05 AM »

With safe loads all handguns chambered in .454 are similar.

The Ruger is a 6shots, all others revolver chambered in .454 Casull are 5 shots.

All the guns are tested in ballistic labs in the US or in Belgium (for my guns) with over pressure loads charged between 30-40% off the pressure limit written in the book. MAXIMUM 5-6 shots are tested with these loads one time in the gun's life. Normally a .454 casull must resit to pressure 70-80000 Cup. You can understand that a revolver can't resit a lot to normal loads (50-55000 CUP) if pressure max of cylinder is 60000 CUP.

FA is the strongest gun on the market up to now, Taurus and Ruger are great too. But i don't use the same loads for my FA than for my Taurus.

I don't like to shoot bullet over 320-330 gr out my Taurus, with my FA a 355 gr isn't a problem.

Cost of gun isn't the same but a Taurus is enough to kill all animals with a 320 gr bullet at 1200 fps.

Mirage · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2003, 01:55:01 PM »

1. I have the 444 RB, strong gun, shoots great!

2. A good many if not most gun manufacturers stipulate about only using
factory ammo for liability / warranty issues.

3. The taurus manual states for the 44 do not use ammo that exceeds 1350 fps for a 240 grain bullet. a check of most reloading manuals show 1300 ~ 1400 fps as max. for this round which is approaching max. pressures with a safety margin, this includes the RH/BH. Also keep in mind the 1350 fps. would be low for a Contender / closed breech, same pressures would yield higher velocity.

1badmagnum · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2003, 08:13:12 PM »

I have some h110 I'd like to use in my raging bull using 300 grain speer jsp's.
I'm starting at 20 grains,anybody see any problems,or have any good data for h110?
I've heard 45 long colt brass is thinner/weaker than 44 magnum or 454 cases.
could I trim down and use 454 cases for 45 long colt to maximize case life?

Ullr · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2003, 05:15:19 AM »

Ive wondered this myself. But from what Ive read (fairly new to reloading so reading is most of my knowledge) this is my understanding.

The modern 45 Colt cases are as strong as you will ever need for 45 Colt level loads. This is the same brass that was used to develop the 454 Casull. The idea of 45 Colt brass being weak is based on the old process of making the brass not todays brass.

The 454 brass takes a small rife primer. Im sure this would have an effect on the loading data for a 45 Colt that uses large pistol primers. Also the rife primer is harder and I dont know if this would have an effect on misfires or not when used in a pistol that was designed for pistol primers. Also I believe the 454 brass is made from a harder alloy and thicker walled case, which would hold the bullet tighter and longer increasing pressure or an identical load in a 45 case.

Im sure that it probably can be done. But I dont believe it to be necessary. I have not reloaded any my 45 Colt brass enough to wear it out yet, but I also only a couple of reloads on it.

Paul H · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2003, 08:23:23 AM »

I have never shot a Raging bull, and haven't read of any analysis of the Raging bulls metalurgy or design. There have been many pot shots taken, basically summed up that it's a cheap imported gun.

There have been reports that both Taurus and Ruger have shipped guns that were poorly assembled and that didn't shoot worth a hoot. I haven't heard any qualified statements that either guns have catasrophically failed in use. I have heard of some Raging Bulls shooting loose, I've never heard of a SRH shooting loose.

The metal used in the SRH is likely much stronger then the Bull, however, the SRH cylinder is much thinner, and has cutouts over the chamber, so they have to be made of stronger metal.

I know that a few brave, or more accurately foolish soles have had SRH 480's rechambered to 475 Linebaughs, and they've pushed the loads to the limit, ie 400 gr @ 1500 fps. Those guns haven't broken, but the shooters say the guns are unshootable at that level of recoil.

I've personally put several thousand rounds through my 480, evenly split between max loads and mild loads. The gun is as tight and accurate as it was new. I've even put a few loads through it that were too hot and caused the cases to stick.

Now to the question of only using factory ammo. It is a CYA statment by the factories. They have no control over what sort of handloads are run through there guns, and a careless handloader can certainly assemble ammunition that will damage or destroy a gun.

Handloading is potentially dangerous, and requires care and prudence on the part of the handloader. I haven't fired any factory ammo through my 480, nor do I ever plan to. It is my choice, and I have to live with the consequences of my choices.

1badmagnum · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2003, 08:44:28 AM »

I have also heard horror stories about taurus pistols.I own a pt92,pt945 and now a raging bull and all three function flawlessly.the lockup on the bull is nice and tight,the fit and finish is flawless,and its alot of fun shooting it.being as its a six shooter and not a five shot with thicker cylinder walls,I'm going to stick to full power/correct loads.
the 41 magnum tracker is definately the next wheelgun on my list.

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2003, 06:49:43 AM »

i have heard from a friend of a friend of a friend... you get the picture. a little rule i try to follow is that if you havent seen it first hand, it is just another rumor. every taurus i have had and have handled, was a well made firearm. best bang for the buck, and made better than some of its competitors which sell for more. it is my opinion that taurus is THE firearm manufacturer to beat (and for the money, no one has yet). their line of revolvers has the rest of the industry playing catch-up. :mrgreen:

JohnK · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2003, 04:56:26 PM »

Amazing, a thread about Taurus revolvers where 1/2 the posts aren't people complaining how they bought one and the cylinder fell out, the barrel dropped off and it gave them the flu. :lol:

I've either owned or have close friends or family members who have had a total of 8 Taurus revolvers or autos. None of them have had a problem more serious than an ejector rod working loose.

I agree with myronman3, at least as far as product line diversity goes they're all behind Taurus.

1badmagnum · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2003, 05:06:44 PM »

ok I lied:(
I got a fantastic deal on a raging bull 454 with 8 inch barrel,redfield scope,pistol case and 3 boxes of ammo for $550:)!
I'm shooting 45 colt loads at 22 grains and 454 at 32 grains.
the 32 grain loads produce a very nice blast of flames,and I'm still 5 grains under maximum loads.the gun doesnt kick real hard yet even at 32 grains which is the same charge as my desert eagle 50 ae rounds.I usually know when the loads start to get close to max because your hands start to feel the pain of the pistol kicking back.
the porting seems to help recoil immensely,a very smooth and dead nuts accurate wheelgun.
I'M STILL WANTING THE 41 MAGNUM. :eek:

jaycocreek · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2003, 04:51:07 AM »

I have a Raging Bull because i cant afford a freedoms Armsd.I called Cor-Bon to ask about there ammo.The guy they sent me to said when he came to work one day he had two Taurus .454,s sitting on his desk.He was to run all there hot ammo thru it to see how it held up.It must have held up.There factory stuff is as hot as it gets.I ran there ammo thru the chrono to see how far i could go.Because my wife and son like to shoot it to i have settled reloads to 1457fps.Useing h-110.Finnaly found a burriss red dot that would hold up to it.Shook two off it.All h-110 isnt the same and i started with 28gr. and worked up.There 300 gr.jsp goes about 1587 ave in my 6.5 barrel.I havent chronoed the 335 yet.The strongest is Freedom Arms but you can buy four Bulls for that and i cant afford one.

1badmagnum · « **Reply #16 on:** May 05, 2003, 08:24:04 PM »

finally got my tracker,and both guns handle hot rounds just fine.
My 41 magnum rounds use between 18-20 grains of h110,with 18 being about the best for accuracy and minimal recoil.
the 20 grain loads are real stingers,even with gloves.
I have a few thousand rounds through each gun,and they both gobble up anything I feed them,although the stronger,larger raging bull has less recoil.
I like the 41 magnum alot,and would consider buying another slightly larger revolver,maybe a ruger blackhawk.

1badmagnum · « **Reply #17 on:** May 05, 2003, 08:46:36 PM »

finally got my tracker,and both guns handle hot rounds just fine.
My 41 magnum rounds use between 18-20 grains of h110,with 18 being about the best for accuracy and minimal recoil.
the 20 grain loads are real stingers,even with gloves.
I have a few thousand rounds through each gun,and they both gobble up anything I feed them,although the stronger,larger raging bull has less recoil.
I like the 41 magnum alot,and would consider buying another slightly larger revolver,maybe a ruger blackhawk.

Pot-Bellied Stallion · « **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2003, 06:25:17 AM »

1badmagnum, while I've never owned a Taurus of any kind, I don't doubt their strength and reliability. However, my Redhawk .41 magnum shoots best (most accurate) with 23 grains of H110 in front of CCI magnum primers. This is the load I have been shooting for 5 or 6 years with no apparent effect on the handgun. I like a heavy recoil in anything I shoot, so that aspect doesn't bother me.
I appreciate the fact that you are a .41 magnum fan. There don't seem to be too many of us still around. Same with 10mm fans.

Smokem · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2003, 07:33:31 AM »

There was an article in "Design News" magazine about the SuperRed Hawk 454 Casull. It spoke about the proprietary stainless steel that they were making it from. I will look for the link to the article.

bfoster · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2003, 04:22:07 AM »

In general I'd be far more concerned with fit up problems with any currently produced revolver than I'd be with the design metallurgy. Let's face it: the market demands prices that minimize the amount of time that manufacturers can expend on properly tuning most revolvers. I have seen new handguns made by every major manufacturer that had problems right out of the box.

I'm not suggesting that there are any inherently unsafe designs on the market in this class of revolver, but part of the reason that FA revolvers, as well as the output of small shops like that of Linebaugh will handle very high pressure loads well is the near perfect fit.

Bob

HappyHunter · « **Reply #21 on:** October 17, 2003, 01:34:22 AM »

It is the 50th anniversery of the 41 mag. To celebrate I got a RB in this caliber.

Finally shot it yesterday for the 1st time. I must admit I was impressed! Felt recoil was minimal, 20.2 gr of H-110 with 210 gr XTP.

With absolutly no load develepment this rig was shooting baseball size groups at 50 ft with iron sights, litterly out of the box. The porting seems to really work well.

This is the smallest caliber offered in the RB, man is it a joy to shoot.

Fred

unspellable · « **Reply #22 on:** December 10, 2003, 03:13:22 AM »

I have Raging Bulls in both 45 Colt and 454 Casull.

The pit fall with hot loads in a 45 Colt is that most 45 Colt chambers are cut to SAAMI specs. This is an oversized chamber, a hangover from black powder days when you had to leave some room for the fouling. This allows the brass to stretch too much and leads to short case life. Most people don't notice this and simply blame the brass. The only properly sized 45 Colt revolver chamber I know of is in the S&W N frame made after the pinned barrel was dropped. Unfortunately, the S&W is not strong enough for really hot 45 Colt loads. If you are loading hot in the 45 Colt chamber I would try to get away with neck sizing only.

The pit fall in full house loading for the 454 Casull lies in powder and bullet choice. Poor choices here can lead to fast erosion of the barrel throat. With midrange loads this problem goes away. The 454 chamber is tighter than the 45 Colt chamber in order to avoid stretching the brass.

JohnK · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2004, 06:38:31 PM »

Quote from: HappyHunter

This is the smallest caliber offered in the RB, man is it a joy to shoot.

Fred

Taurus has a 30 Carbine Raging Bull called the "Raging Thirty"
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=30CSS10&category=Revolver

I'd hang on to that 41 Mag RB Fred, they seem on the rare side at least in the PWN. I've yet to see one in that caliber.

yotehunter · « **Reply #24 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:10:16 PM »

I own a Raging Bull 454 Casull. I dont reload at the moment so I have no info there. I do feel the Taurus is a very strong and well made handgun. Most of the bad mouthing comes from people who owned them years ago when they were poorly made or people who are just brand bashing and have had no experiance with them. My RB is one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever owned. I have never had any problems to date.