Author Topic: Need Advice re .45-70 with "Green Box" ammo (Read 1560 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** October 11, 2009, 06:04:50 AM »

Dear Guys,

You may have seen my posts under other topic sections, where I have been pining away for a single shot in .35 Remington. Well, its pretty clear that it ain't gonna happen for me anytime soon.

So, for a substitute for a few years, I am considering a Handi in .45-70. Now, let me give you a little info:

1. I only weight 145 pounds, and though very muscular, I am somewhat recoil shy. (Developed a bad flinch at age 17 from shooting that 7 Mag that I just HAD to have. Took me 10 years to cure it.) My favorite round is the .308 Winchester.

2. I will not reload, ever. Hate it. I only shoot factory ammo.

3. My brother had a .45-70 Handi that he bought 6 years ago for bear hunting, and he disliked it so much, that he just basically gave it away to a friend. (I never got a chance to shoot it.)

4. I am a big believer in buying and installing absolutely first rate recoil pads, such as the Kick-Eez, the Decelerator, and the Limb Saver. I recognize that the cost of installing one of these on a Handi may cost almost 2/3rds of what the rifle itself costs.

5. I would be using the Handi as a deeps woods rifle, shooting from stands, with shots no more than 60 to 80 yards. Deer, and maybe someday if I am lucky, a passing black bear. I am a very experience hunter (40 years) and don't press my luck by taking shots beyond my capabilities or my rifle's capabilities.

Now, having said all of this, it seems to me that lots of folks buy the .45-70, and then spend all of their time trying to make it into a .458 Winchester Magnum, taking great joy in loading or buying the most powerful rounds they can. That's OK, but it is not for me.

If I got one, I would be buying and shooting the regular, weak-loaded, Remington Green Box Core-Lokt. I have no doubts that this will strike stone dead any deer or black bear at 80 yards.

As side info, I would tell you that during muzzle loading season, I shoot an H&R Sidekick, .50 caliber, loaded with just 80 grains of bp and a 240 grain powerbelt. I don't really have any problems with the recoil (Of course, black powder has a slower oomp to its recoil than smokeless powder.)

So here are my questions:

1. Does anybody have any practical experience in shooting just the plain old green box stuff, which I belive is what, a 405 grain softpoint? Accuracy? Other issues?

2. What is the recoil like with the green box stuff in a Handi? Perceived? Felt? Computed as free recoil energy?

3. Any issues with bullet performance?

4. Any advice? Suggestions?

Sorry to give you so many details.

Thanks for all info.

Regards,
Mannyrock

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:13:38 AM »

Limbsaver makes a prefit pad for the synthetic stock, put a sock filled with shot in the stock cavity and you won't even know it went off if you're wearing good hearing protection!!

The 405gr Rems don't have a lot of recoil and would be perfect for your application, they shot 1½" 3-shot 100yd groups from mine, can't say how they do on game from any personal experience, but there are plenty here that have and like em. Recoil would be similar to the 308Win if you don't put any weight in the stock.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Dustyvance · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:22:10 AM »

I have the Buffalo Classic and LOVE IT! I have best results from the 325 Gr. Hornady ammo. I could NOT handel the handi but, thats cuz I am in a wheelchair. Sitting down the recoil just plain hurt. The Buffao Classic is just a light push even from my chair. It cost a little more but IMHO, its WELL worth it. and would work for your app.'s .

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:34:13 AM »

+1 on what Tim said. I weigh only 150 lbs and I shoot 325 gr. .45-70 Hornady LeverEvolutions in my synthetic stocked Handi with the factory recoil pad. I put 36 ounces of #4 shot in a sock in the stock. It did two things: It really deadened the recoil and it made it carry and sling better counterbalanceing the heavy barrel. The .45-70 is a fine deer rifle anywhere from 80 to 300 yards or more. It will do the job with the LEs. The only hitch is the person doing the shooting has to know the range and the drop.

You can buy a Handi .357 mag. and convert it to your .35 Rem pretty easily, but it's got to be on a SB2 frame.

Pete

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:44:26 AM »

#5 pretty much eliminates the BC due to being un-Handi in the confines of a stand, at least that's the general consensus of those that have tried it.

Tim

Quote

5. I would be using the Handi as a deeps woods rifle, shooting from stands, with shots no more than 60 to 80 yards.

poncaguy · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:53:29 AM »

I may not like it's look, but the Chaoate pistol grip stock in abled me to shoot my Handi 45-70 from the bench with no pain..............I could hardly stand up and shoot with comfort with the wood stock...............

1NEFsofar · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2009, 07:38:13 AM »

+1 w/ Poncguy. I am recoil sensitive since I had shoulder surgery so I have my 45-70 mounted to a choate varmit stock that has been filled with approx. 2.5lbs of lead. I put it in the pistol grip and sealed it with epoxy as well as in the stock. Since you can hold the pistol grip and hold it tight into your shoulder the recoil is minimal. I have shot both Remington 300 gr as well as Hornady 325LE's. The Hornady gave me better groups at 100 yards but did kick a little more.

Just a hint with dealing with recoil. Hold the gun tight to the meat of your shoulder and try and realax the rest of your body. It helps absorb the recoil by spreading out the shock.

BTW...I only weigh 155lbs so I understand recoil to weight isses. If you are recoil shy, don't ever shoot a handy slug gun in 12 gauge! You will regreat it...just ask around.

Swampman · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2009, 05:51:09 AM »

If you fill the stock with weight you make the rifle too heavy & unbalanced. The Remington 405 has no recoil & it's very accurate. It's all I use as far as factory ammo goes.

1NEFsofar · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2009, 07:34:59 AM »

Swampman...my stock IS filled with weight as I described and the point of ballance is right in front of the trigger guard (if I touch the front of the trigger guard with my finger the entire gun will balance perfectly).

I would say that this is perfectly balanced.

Swampman · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2009, 07:54:04 AM »

The thing I like best about the Handi is it's weight. If it were lighter it would be even better.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:19:33 AM »

The green box remmys shoot great out of my handi. I like them and they shoot well so if I am gonna buy ammo that will prolly be it.
I am not recoil shy but I don't shoot big hammers if I don't need to, Most of my handloads are 405 grainers at about the same speed as a green box 405 and they hammer deer. I to hunt deep woods and heavy brush, .45-70 works.

Just to make it even easier I added a mercury recoil reducer to mine and it works great recoil is prolly less violent than my .308.

BTW I would rather shoot my .45-70 than my buddy's Marlin .35 rem.

pvtschultz · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:58:29 AM »

The 405 gr Core-Lokt Remmies have a reported MV of 1330 fps. This should yield about 25 ft-lbs of recoil energy. A 150 gr 308 at 2800 fps yields 15 ft-lbs of recoil energy. Both for a 7 lbs rifle. I shot a 300 gr 45-70 bullet at about 1800 fps which comes out to about the same recoil energy and I didn't think it was all that bad, but noticable.

oleman · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2009, 10:49:51 AM »

All I have every used in my .45/70 is the green box Remington. They shoot 1.5 inch at 100 yds. and make as big a hole going in as my .243 does coming out. I have had complete pass through on every deer I have shot with this cartridge. I do use a sissy pad ( folded up towel ) at the range and I gotta say that I have never heard a rifle make a sound or remember any recoil when shooting at a deer. I bought this Handi to hunt primitive weapon season in Mississippi and now use it during the whole season. Love it!

Oleman
Baker, La.

fish280 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2009, 11:29:39 AM »

the less you weigh, the less impact pain from recoil, because you move more easily in reaction. a 300-pound guy is gonna feel more impact. when shooting from the bench, pad up your shoulder, make sure the trigger elbow is on a smooth, soft surface, and you have something soft and smooth under your shooting cheek. this makes heavy-recoiling rifles like the .45-70 handi far more pleasant.

you won't be on a bench when hunting, so you won''t feel near as much recoil ...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2009, 11:45:57 AM »

My 12ga 835 Mossy shooting 3½" turkey loads is painful to shoot when pattering it(one reason why I went to a 20ga H&R!), even with a Limbsaver pad and shooting standing from a bipod which is how I dealt with it, the recoil is about double to triple that of 45-70 loads, but I NEVER felt the recoil when shooting a turkey, even with a tree at my back.

Tim

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2009, 02:38:25 PM »

Tim, I shoot the BC from a stand that my brother made for me at his farm. It's a big flat platform, 3'x3' that leans against the side of a big oak at the edge of the farm and afces in. He built it for me without me even asking cause he knows I shoot best from the traditional seated competition style position.

Graycg · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2009, 06:57:52 AM »

I'd watch just going out and adding a pre-fit pad to your handi...part of recoil is stock fit and if the stock is too long, adding a pad will make it worse. Get your rifle measured by someone who knows what they are doing and cut your stock if needed to fit you right, and don't forget what clothes you will be wearing when you hunt, get measured in them. PS, I agree, the 405 grain factory ammo doesn't kick bad at all. You could also look into some of the PMC or others that load cowboy loads...400 grain cast bullets at 1200 fps will kill bambi or blackies easily at 80-100 yards if you can hit them right....recoil is nada...

regards,
Graycg

Swampman · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:18:43 AM »

If you use a scope the very low velocity loads won't be a problem. If not you'll need a taller front sight.

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:30:44 AM »

Silly boy, silly boy. If ya want a dang .35 Remington then just get one. For less money than you're gonna spend on this project which is likely to just bring back that flinch you can get a .357 Magnum or Max barrel reamed to .35 Remington and have what ya want to begin with and it won't kick you sillier with factory loads.

But if ya get the .45-70 just stick to cowboy action shooting CAS loads.

ihookem · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2009, 02:10:00 PM »

Your brother gave a 45-70 away without asking you first? Forget the new gun, you need a new brother

BrianB · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2009, 04:00:20 PM »

I shot the 300 grain Remingtons when I first got my 45-70 and don't remember the recoil being bad at all. I have shot the Hornady LeverEvolutions as well, and they aren't bad either.

Let's put it this way. My son's deer rifle is a 45-70 Handi. He got it at age 12, has always shot handloads slightly hotter than factory and loves it. At 15, he still has no desire to shoot any of the other rifles we have for deer. Factory loads are just not that bad at all. Now, if you ever start shooting really hot handloads, well, that can get downright painful. At 44 years old (today is the last day I can say that...d@mn!) I'm moving back down the ballistic ladder to slower and more comfortable loads.

At the ranges you're talking about, which are the same as where we hunt, the lightest factory bullet/load out there is more than enough power for even the biggest, meanest, foaming-at-the-mouth whitetail out there.

mannyrock · « **Reply #21 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:16:53 AM »

Dear Guys, and Master Graybeard,

Thanks for all of the advice. It confirms what I was hoping, i.e., that the greenbox is a non-painful and effective load. Although I could go the .35 Remington route, I decided that when I go that route, I want to go all the way, and end up with a beautiful, straight-gripped Handi, exactly like the one that Tim showed us.

In the meantime, Handi's in .45-70 can be found fairly cheap around central Virginia. Lots of guys, like my brother, got "bear" on their minds after seeing one or two in the woods, and went out and bought new .45-70 Handi's, and stoked them up with the stoutest factory loads they could find. After getting their teeth rattled really hard at the bench a few times, and shelling out $35 or more per box a few times, and carrying it to the deer stand for a season or two, their interests drifted to other calibers, and they relegated their unpleasant .45-70 to the broom closet.

I have seen them sold around here at gunshows, in used near excellent condition, for as little as $135. At that price, I could buy a first rate pad, shorten the stock and install the pad myself, and still not have more than $175 in it.

Again, thanks for all of the excellent advice.

Regards,

Mannyrock

fish280 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2009, 06:21:07 AM »

mine likes the green box 350-grain loads. trajectory fits the factory sights just fine. recoil not an issue. like the swamp guy said, lighter the better for toting ...

fish280 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2009, 06:23:05 AM »

'scuse me, 300-grain factory loads.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 21, 2009, 02:24:19 PM »

If it were my choice..having the same priorities as yours...as much as I love the caliber...I would not get a 45-70..

Having just 80 yard shots..with a small( but possible) prospect of a black bear..and you don't reload..and are recoil shy...To me..the real answer is easy...you just need a good ole 30-30...Add a thumbhole stock..a limbsaver recoil pad..and a stick on cheek pad and your prayers have been answered..If..it still kicks too much for you..add some lead in the stock..and get a strap on shoulder pad..

The 30-30..has more advantages than most other calibers..and while it may not have the flash & glamor or the much more vaunted 45-70..I firmly believe would serve you better..than the other..

1) ..Most 30-30 Handi's are very accurate with a wide range of factory ammo

2) ..Have less recoil than a 45-70

3).. Ammo is a lot cheaper to buy..and you can get it almost everywhere

4)..It too is a rimmed cartridge..

5)..Easy to convert if you ever deciede to reload or have someone reload for you....Can be made into a 30-30 Improved..307 or 30-40 Krag standard or Improved..

Just my $.02

PS..add a inexpensive Halo site on it..and you won't have to worry about not seeing the open sites at first and last light..or in dark timber

Mac

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 21, 2009, 03:27:47 PM »

Either of these would stop a black bear at 80 yards with a well placed shot. 300 gr loads in 45-70 DON'T kick more than a 410 though....

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #26 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:37:31 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on October 13, 2009, 08:30:44 AM

you can get a .357 Magnum or Max barrel reamed to .35 Remington and have what ya want to begin with and it won't kick you sillier with factory loads.

Isn't the rifling a mite slow for many rifle bullets?

What about the occasionally available Boyd's thumbhole stocks?
They are laminated, fairly heavy, and come with a decent pad on them, I think it's Limbsaver.