Author Topic: ...H&R 22 Hornet to 22 Savage HP rechamber? Done-sorta. 219 Zipper Improved! (Read 4074 times)

briannmilewis · « **on:** October 21, 2009, 05:34:44 PM »

Just wondering if anyone has done a 22 Savage HP rechamber on a 22 Hornet?

It interests me as it looks like a big Hornet and is rimmed of course, so I wouldn't need the ejector swapped out (just modified) unlike I would have to with a rimless rechamber.

Parent is the 30-30 Win, plentiful and cheap.

Specs says 228 bullets, but I am pretty sure a Lee Factory Crimp Die would crimp a 224 bullet, especially as internal neck thickness with the neck-down may help make up the difference. Of course, I am assuming, you aren't supposed to shoot .228 bullets in .224 barrels.

Redding have forming dies pretty cheap:

I would need to add a FL sizer.

Case capacity of the 22 Savage HP = 131% of 223 Rem, 89% of 22-250, and 77% of 220 Swift.

What do you think?

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:38:24 PM »

It's not a simple rechamber job if I recall correct as the Savage HP uses bullets that are .228" not .224" like the Hornet and some even have .223" barrels. Not a wise move in my opinion. If you want more from it just go with a .225 Winchester or .220 Swift if ya really want to step them out.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:49:10 PM »

The 225 winchester is pretty close to the 22 SHP case capacity, not a bad suggestion.

Again I find myself in this weird cartridge middle ground, not wanting to go too fast and use too much powder.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2009, 06:09:54 PM »

Another thought...Shorten the length of the 22 SHP neck by 0.085", to match the 22 Hornet neck length of 0.323", then run the case thru my 22 Hornet neck sizer, and make a custom chamber reamer made.

bcp · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2009, 08:50:17 PM »

The 219 Zipper is almost identical to the 22 HP in appearance, but is designed for standard 0.224 bullets.

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2009, 11:36:52 PM »

As long as you throat your 22 Savage HP for 224 dia. bullets and use a proper sizing die to get the necessary neck pressure on the 224 bullet it should work fine.That being said the Zipper is a more logical answer because everything will fit from the get go without the cost of custom dies and reamers.
Good Luck on your project Should be interesting which ever way you go, Keep us informed

briannmilewis · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:08:33 AM »

Quote from: bcp on October 21, 2009, 08:50:17 PM

The 219 Zipper is almost identical to the 22 HP in appearance, but is designed for standard 0.224 bullets.

Quote from: jeepmann1 on October 21, 2009, 11:36:52 PM

As long as you throat your 22 Savage HP for 224 dia. bullets and use a proper sizing die to get the necessary neck pressure on the 224 bullet it should work fine. That being said the Zipper is a more logical answer because everything will fit from the get go without the cost of custom dies and reamers.
Good Luck on your project Should be interesting which ever way you go, Keep us informed

I think the 219 Zipper wins! it does have almost the identical case capacity as the 22 Sav HP, and yes, rather than mucking about with the neck issues, would be better.

I have two choices for the 219 Zipper:

and

Going with the Improved would help with case life I am sure.

I could buy 219 Zipper brass for $1.85 a piece, and spend $128 on FL Sizer and a Seater dies.

I can make my own from 30-30 Win for 30c a piece.

Buying 3 forming dies, plus a FL sizer and Seater, to make my own brass from 30-30 Win, costs $350 or less.

Making my own brass would save $1.55 a piece. The difference in hardware cost between buying and making is $220.

At a savings of $1.55 a piece to make my own, payback for the additional forming harware investment is 142 cases! So making the extra investment in the forming hardware is a no-brainer bargain to me. Then fire-form them into 219 Zipper Improved.

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2009, 04:22:44 AM »

I shoot a Zipper in my Contender...great choice....also have an old '99 22 Hi-Power and of course the similarities and differences have been correctly pointed out already. Brass....after buying the expensive forming dies to size down the 30/30 brass, I discovered that I could buy 25-35win brass at not too bad a price and just run it through the Zipper FL die...load...and shoot...presto! Good luck with the project.

Walt

briannmilewis · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2009, 08:49:47 AM »

Quote from: Hopalong7 on October 22, 2009, 04:22:44 AM

I shoot a Zipper in my Contender...great choice....also have an old '99 22 Hi-Power and of course the similarities and differences have been correctly pointed out already. Brass....after buying the expensive forming dies to size down the 30/30 brass, I discovered that I could buy 25-35win brass at not too bad a price and just run it through the Zipper FL die...load...and shoot...presto! Good luck with the project. Walt

Walt: I checked out the 25-35 brass at Midway, 50 cost 45c each and 500 costs 40c each.

So if I run my payback worst case on costing 15c more to buy than to make, the payback for saving $178 in forming dies, is about 1200 cases. That could be about a life-time supply.

So there we have it, the cheap route to 219 Zipper cases. I will still have to buy a FL Sizer and Seater die set as I would with any other caliber, a Trim Die ($36) as I am adopting file trimming, and if I want a neck sizer, Hornady has a universal 22 cal neck sizer for $25.

It doesn't get much cheaper than that for a popular wildcat.

bcp · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2009, 10:10:01 AM »

I wouldn't consider a 219 Zipper Improved except for purely nostalgic reasons.

The 225 Winchester is almost identical except for rim diameter and thickness. It is a Zipper Improved modified to fit a standard bolt face, but it still works as a rim if needed. No need for a custom reamer and dies. You could even make cases for it from the 30-30 family and have the larger rim if you wanted.

Bruce

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2009, 10:47:28 AM »

One other consideration on the HiPower issue is the twist of the barrel. I am not sure what the twist was on the .22 Savage, but usually, the little hornet is pretty slow 1-16 sometimes. I had to go to a 1-8 with my 22-250 IMP. to shoot long 75 grain bullets.....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2009, 11:15:51 AM »

Most H&R Hornets are 1:12", some of the older pre '86 H&R Inc barrels were 1:16" as Kurt found out. Current and very recent production Hornet barrels are 1:9", same as the .223.

Tim

briannmilewis · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2009, 12:17:58 PM »

Quote from: bcp on October 22, 2009, 10:10:01 AM

I wouldn't consider a 219 Zipper Improved except for purely nostalgic reasons.

The 225 Winchester is almost identical except for rim diameter and thickness. It is a Zipper Improved modified to fit a standard bolt face, but it still works as a rim if needed. No need for a custom reamer and dies. You could even make cases for it from the 30-30 family and have the larger rim if you wanted.

Bruce

Bruce: I am interested in significantly less case capacity than a 22-250 - 43gr water. The case capacity for the 219 Zipper is 34gr water and 225 Win is 41gr water. I am also interested in nostalgia factor, which is making me swing back toward the plain 219 away from the Improved. It was the "big brother" look about the 22 Sav HP and its case capacity that got me thinking about this in the first place. Regardless, all input and feedback is valuable to me.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2009, 12:35:47 PM »

QT, that is interesting.. I am not a handi rifle fan, but am surprised to find the Hornet has such a quick twist in their rifles....

gendoc · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2009, 12:44:54 PM »

the swift would be my choice too...
but thats from an ol'timer tho

44 Man · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2009, 06:40:19 AM »

Definately go with the Improved version. Less case taper, brass doesn't need trimming as often, and you would have something unique. My choice may not be yours, but enjoy whichever way you go. 44 Man

briannmilewis · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2009, 08:00:13 AM »

Quote from: 44 Man on October 23, 2009, 06:40:19 AM

Definately go with the Improved version. Less case taper, brass doesn't need trimming as often, and you would have something unique. My choice may not be yours, but enjoy whichever way you go. 44 Man

I like all the positives of the Improved...it is kinda hard to justify aesthetics when these things are in the balance. Thx 44 Man.

dieselten · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2009, 10:00:50 AM »

will a .219 Zipper (standard) work from a re-bore of a .223 chamber? Or do you have to use a .22 Hornet or smaller cartridge?

briannmilewis · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2009, 12:25:56 PM »

Quote from: dieselten on October 23, 2009, 10:00:50 AM

will a .219 Zipper (standard) work from a re-bore of a .223 chamber? Or do you have to use a .22 Hornet or smaller cartridge?

Looking at all three, you will notice that the dimensions of the Zipper exceed all 223 dimensions, and the shallower 12 degree Zipper shoulder starts earlier in the taper than the 223 23 degree shoulder, the Zipper neck is also longer as is its case length, and they have the same cartridge overall length. It looks OK to me for a 223 Rem rechamber, but someone with rechambering experience needs to butt in here and give us a definitive answer. Wouldn't the barrel face have to be recessed for the larger rim and would that process remove any small differences that may otherwise remain at the shoulder/neck?

The only issue is you have to change out your extractor/ejector for a rimmed version if you use the 223.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2009, 12:47:00 PM »

Quote from: jeepmann1 on October 21, 2009, 11:36:52 PM

As long as you throat your 22 Savage HP for 224 dia. bullets and use a proper sizing die to get the necessary neck pressure on the 224 bullet it should work fine...

Quote from: Hopalong7 on October 22, 2009, 04:22:44 AM

...Brass....after buying the expensive forming dies to size down the 30/30 brass, I discovered that I could buy 25-35win brass at not too bad a price and just run it through the Zipper FL die...load...and shoot...presto! Good luck with the project. Walt

I can't get over how much more info has been flowing in. I reviewed it all today and another alternative occured to me that relates back to my first idea...If I put these two suggestions above together, I think I will try making brass for the 22 Savage HP with a 224 neck using 25-35 Win parent cases, to begin with. If that works, no forming dies needed and as Hopalong7 indicates, a simple process, that I just need to finish off with a 224 neck sizer.

If it does not work, then I am out the cost of 22 Savage HP full-length die which I can sell, and I have not wasted money on the parent brass that can be used for the 219 Zipper.

bcp · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2009, 12:49:46 PM »

A standard shellholder allows 0.125 of the case to stick out of a FL resizing die.

I FL sized a 223 case with expander ball removed so the neck stays small. The 223 case was then dropped into a 219 Zipper FL die to see how much stuck out. That was about 0.195.

It looks like a 219 Zipper reamer will not clean out a 223 chamber.

Bruce

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2009, 01:41:21 PM »

A 223 barrel can be rechambered to 219 Zipper Improved, but not the Zipper according to AmmoGuide's rechamber guide. A hornet makes a good donor for the Zipper, Marv has one that he did himself by hand, all he did was swap the ejector out with a 30-30 ejector, he was my inspiration for doing the 30-30AI and 270AI by hand!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,106496.msg1098304183.html#msg1098304183

briannmilewis · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2009, 02:59:18 PM »

Who knows what "rechambering ideas" dwell in the hearts of men, only the "GBO Shadow" knows! (a.k.a Tim)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2009, 03:02:57 PM »

How's this for a wildcat, prolly been done, it could just as easily be a .22-120, 45 Basic necked down to whatever, I think the other cartridge is a 338 Win mag!!

Tim

briannmilewis · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2009, 03:04:58 PM »

But I want to know, how many 100,000 fps?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2009, 03:07:29 PM »

I dunno, it was just a lark I dreamed up during one of the many wildcat discussions here, I think Tyler was responsible. Wayne York has a .50BMG cartridge necked down to .22 cal in his shop on display, I asked him what it would do, but he just laughed, someone prolly has done it too.

Tim

dieselten · « **Reply #26 on:** October 25, 2009, 05:03:17 AM »

If I started with a .223 extractor barrel and hand reamed to .219 Zipper Improved, could I just install a 30-30 extractor or will modification to the lug or extractor channel be necessary?

Thanks
Nick

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** October 25, 2009, 05:40:01 AM »

You could IF the extractor posts are the same width which I suspect they are, I don't have an extractor barrel in either, so I don't know.

Tim

briannmilewis · « **Reply #28 on:** October 25, 2009, 11:29:51 AM »

Quote from: Hopalong7 on October 22, 2009, 04:22:44 AM

I shoot a Zipper in my Contender...great choice....also have an old '99 22 Hi-Power and of course the similarities and differences have been correctly pointed out already. Brass....after buying the expensive forming dies to size down the 30/30 brass, I discovered that I could buy 25-35win brass at not too bad a price and just run it through the Zipper FL die...load...and shoot...presto! Good luck with the project. Walt

Hopalong: Do you have to trim or ream the necks after the first forming, before the first reloading?