Author Topic: 44 Magnum Trouble  (Read 4826 times)

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Offline okie john

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44 Magnum Trouble
« on: May 25, 2007, 09:03:37 AM »
My 4” M-29-2 and a 5” M-629 Classic are driving me nuts. I got the 629 used and had the throats opened to .430” by cylindersmith.com. At 25 yards, it regularly shoots into 3” with cheap cast SWC’s around 850 fps over Unique or Bullseye, or with a Dry Creek Keith bullet at up to 1,250. I haven’t pushed them or anything else faster because 240 at 1,250 is my recoil limit.

The 29-2 won’t shoot anything well, not factory, not Keiths, not machine cast SWC’s, and not Hornady swaged SWC’s. About the best it will do is 6” at 25 yards. Throats are .432, and it appears to be mechanically sound.

Recently I read all of your 44-caliber threads here looking for help. I ordered 100 each 280-gr. WFNPBs in .431”, .432” and .433” from Montana Bullet Works. Over 7.5 grains of Unique, the 629 shot the .432” into 6.5” at 25 yards, and shot the .431” bullets slightly worse. The .433” rounds would not chamber. The 29-2’s groups were so big with all three diameters that I didn’t bother measuring them. Then I turned around and shot a 3” group with cheap, machine-cast SWCs at 850 in the 629. I’ve killed deer with this gun and load, but I was hoping for better performance all around, especially in the accuracy department.

Your bullets are superbly accurate in my 5-shot 45 Colt Bisley, a custom 454 and my 1911 street gun. What am I doing wrong with these two 44’s?


Thanks,


Okie John

Offline swampthing

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2007, 02:00:13 PM »
7.5g of unique is a little light, try upping the charge .3g's at a time with the .432"s, preferably over a chrony. That should help.
If your after a good game load try Accurate Arms#5 powder, AA#5, I use CCI 300 primers. Start at 11.5g, 12.5g will probably prove most accurate. It is very uniform, I'm getting 1185fps every time I squeeze the trigger along with one ragged hole accuracy at 50yds!
If that don't do it, and the gun is in good alignment, plus the barrel is smaller dia than the throats firelap it.
If you are not interested in a "game load" IMR Trailboss has proved to be excellent in my .44's
I have found over and over again that "Properly Fitted Hardcast bullet" accuracy is best when you are using powder charges that are above mid range, not necessarilly max, but above mid range for the powder your using.   

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2007, 07:51:31 AM »
  Swampthing gave good advise, if the barrel is smooth and straight end to end, but if its rough it will eat plainbase bullets, and if the muzzle is larger than some other point in the barrel the bullets will be loose when they leave the muzzle.  Especially with light loads.

  Order some push through slugs from LBt and measure the barrel.  There is a good chance that the barrel attachment threads have constricted the barrel quite drastically on one or both of them.  You'll be able to feel this, and measure it with push through slugs, and, will be able to feel any roughness.  Also, the roll stamping which runs up the side of the barrel normally puts a very measurable impression on the inside of the barrel, the worst I've seen being about .003!  Lapping will cure all these ailments and make the gun shoot plainbase beautifully.

   My first Ruger blackhawk, using plainbase bullets, couldn't keep them on the side of a car at 100 yards until after I lapped it.  Gas checked bullets with 'stout medium' to moderately heavy loads shot quite well, and printed around a foot at 100 yards.  After lapping one has the impression he is shooting a good rifle, as bullets print where the sights were pointed when the hammer falls.  In other words, accuracy is so good that it points out any wobble or holding error of the shooter.  I named the Blackhawk, because it happened to be the worst shooting gun I've ever played with, and by the way, it's barrel constriction was .0025 inch before lapping. 

  You stated that you have killed deer with a very mild load, and bullet with relitively small meplate to boot.  Did you get good quick kills with good chest hits?  Please comment.

   This nation is pretty well convined that it takes 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards to kill deer reliably, but I've killed a fair number with 22 long rifles, and even one with a subsonic German long rifle hollow point, with left the muzzle at 950 fps or so.  That deer took it in the heart and fell within 30 yards of where it was hit.  I never lost a deer which I hit with a 22, but some traveled a long ways, and one, after I found it about 150 yards from where it was shot, a bit far back in the lungs, required a finisher.  (The 22  was legal for deer in Michigan for several years after I started deer hunting, and long rifle ammo wasn't specified!)  What I'm saying here is.  There is a MAJOR difference in kill power between a 240+ gr 44 bullet and a 22!  --  I definately don't advocate using light loads on deer, and have made it quite clear through out this forum what has proven to kill large game in its tracks.  Yet, if recoil is too much with top killing loads, and it can be for elderly people, and many who aren't, a milder load that can be shot with precision will win every time, over power that can't be properly applied.
Veral Smith

Offline okie john

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2007, 02:07:08 PM »
The 629 is my main hunting revolver, so I’ll focus on it for now. It sounds like I need to lap the barrel at a minimum.

The deer you asked about both fell to a 44 handgun and Keith-type SWCs at impact velocities around 800 fps. The first dropped to a hit through the lungs just aft of the heart. It was dead by the time I got there, which took a while since the range was well past 100 yards. That bullet exited on a broadside shot. The second deer fell after one hit to the heart-lung area. Range was about 25 yards. It stood up again and I broke the shoulder with my next shot, which ended things. Both of those shots exited. As I said, I want better overall performance, to include faster kills and more accuracy, but with minimal recoil.

The deer I hunt are usually under 100#, they live in very thick brush and most shots are within 30 yards. I don’t see needing high velocity or heavy bullets for this. I know I could run up bullet weight and velocity, but then recoil gets heavy. I’d rather get as much killing power as possible from bullet design and shot placement.

John Linebaugh has written that a 260-gr. Keith at 900 fps from a 45 Colt will shoot lengthwise through deer and antelope at 100 yards. I can shoot that power level well all day long, but if the gun kicks much more, I can’t hit much with it.

Beyond lapping, what do you recommend? Should I consider a 240 or 250-gr. WFN, or even the Ogival Wadcutter?

Thanks again,


Okie John

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 01:11:05 PM »
Thanks for the nicely detailed kill reports.  In my experiance a 250 pound deer will die about as easily as a 100 pound one, except when in the rut, in which case their crazy nature will get more run with not hit hard enough to really anchor them.  I won't hunt any male deer in the rut, for several reasons.  They are inedible being first in importance.  They need to get the breeding done without interuption almost of equal importance in my opinion.

  The OWC doesn't penetrate straight with 100% reliability, and especially with mild loads.  Stick with the WFN.  Lapping is an accuracy improver of coarse.

  John Linebaugh seems to be convinced that deep penetration is everything, but leans to 45 and larger calibers, which helps form his opinions.

   Complete  penetation is critical, but isn't effective if the wound is too small to bleed rapidly.  I don't offer any cast bullets for revolvers which won't penetrate completely on deer and elk and produce a very fast killing wound while doing it, if loaded fairly stout. 

   The WFN penetrates almost as deep as the LFN, given equal weight bullets with similar impact velocities, but wound size of the WFN is much larger.  You'll probably never find one in a deer if weight is at least 240 grains and impact velocity 900 fps or higher.  If one hits a lot of spine or a shoulder joint it could stop, but the deer will stop too. if spine stops the bullet.  A shoulder joint with mild loads can force another quick shot to stop the animal.
Veral Smith

Offline okie john

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 08:42:37 AM »
So in my situation, a 240-gr. WFN at about 900 fps would be accurate and penetrate deep enough?


Okie John

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2007, 06:38:34 PM »
It will go clear through on broadside and quartering shots if large bones aren't hit.
I could be real happy with such a load, and believe many shooters would if they tried it, but it isn't going to kill quick as consistently as the same bullet leaving the gun at 1200 fps.  Just so you know that.

  Accuracy should be as good as any bullet, and far better than most, at speeds down to well under 800 fps, If you fit them properly to your gun.
Veral Smith

Offline Racer X

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2007, 11:02:59 AM »
It will go clear through on broadside and quartering shots if large bones aren't hit.
I could be real happy with such a load, and believe many shooters would if they tried it, but it isn't going to kill quick as consistently as the same bullet leaving the gun at 1200 fps.  Just so you know that.

Accuracy should be as good as any bullet, and far better than most, at speeds down to well under 800 fps, If you fit them properly to your gun.

Veral -- Please explain how the higher velocity results in faster kills. Is there a velocity threshhold in which higher velocity does not result in quicker kills? I thought as long as the bullet reached the vitals, the animal was dead.

I shoot a Ruger 45 Colt and have a variety of WFN designs in the 260 to 280 grain range. What velocity should I use on deer and hogs? I have always heard with cast bullets to shoot through the shoulders (not behind them).
Estranged eldest son of Mom and Pops Racer and older brother of legendary Mach V race car driver Speed Racer

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 02:31:27 AM »
  Optimum velocity for quickest kills with flat nose cast bullets is the velocity that produces a displacement velocity between 100 and 135.  Go higher and kill speed slows down.  Lower requires precision shot placement through vital organs to get a real quick kill.  By quick I mean they  drop at the hit, or stagger maybe take a few steps and go down, or at the worst, travel 30 yards.

  Calculate displacement velocity by measuring the meplat diameter in thousandths of an inch, multiply that by velocity and divide by 4.  A fast way to find desired optimum velocity with any given bullet is divide meplat diameter by four and punch the result into your calculator memory, then go through a string of velocities till you find optimum DV or kill speed.  For example, hit memory return, multiply by 1400 fps, if that's a velocity capability, and D.V. will appear.

   Yes indeed.  Shoot through the shoulders has been the song to sing for many years, but it puts the bullet way up at the front of the vital organs if the shot is perfect broadside, and I believe most of us try to wait for that when we can.  The heart lies low in the check cavity between the shoulders, but its a small target for most hand gunners who aren't certain where it is anyhow, and hitting back from it a few inches severs all the arteries, if DV is in the optimum range.  Hitting higher, about center of the ribcage vertically and lengthwise from back of shoulder to end of ribs, puts the bullet near center of both lungs, with a perfect broadside, and rips up large arteries.  Almost no meat is damaged   as there is little on the ribs. 

  We hear a lot of song about breaking the shoulder also.  If you are skilled enough about the animals anatomy so you can properly judge the right point to aim for, the shoulder joint will be hard on the bullet and if it makes it through the joint there will be no vital, or blood letting organs behind, with a perfect broadside.  The shot will have to quarter in from a frontal angle to get into the chest cavity, and then it will be very low.  I don't like it at all.  I have hit two shoulder joints in 50 years of hunting.  One on the offside with a powerful bullet which took the joint out through the skin.  There was no advantage.  One on bullet entrance which turned the light caliber bullet and required a lot of tracking and a finisher.  Both these on deer.  With real heavy game, breaking the shoulder will dump them, normally,  but not bears nor deer in my experience. 

  I realize that not many hunter cut up their own meat so they don't realize how much meat is ruined by shoulder shooting, and wealthy hunters who are interested in sport and not the meat could care less, as they won't be eating or cutting up the meat.  I have cut up the meat of every animal my family and I have  taken in those 50 years, and normally it is the trophy.  The largest target is the center of the ribcage, and meat loss is minimal.  Least meat loss is the head but miss the brain and you can lose animal real easy.  Neck is good with vertically centered hits pretty much full length of the neck if the bullet is a powerful expanding rifle bullet, but the spine must be hit with nonexpanding or what we would call low shock bullets, with makes the neck an iffy target.  A neck shot in the 1/3 of its length closest to the head wastes almost no meat even with heavy magnum rifle hits and explosive bullets.  I consider neck and head shots good only for such armament, at ranges where precision shot placement is certain.

  Straight away shots are deadly as any with non expanding handgun cast bullets, but they normally stir a lot of the animals last meal or two which must be cleaned out quickly and washed or the entire animal will be tainted and worthless as food.  A gut shot deer which lays 20 minutes before gutting, is coyote bait. 

 
Veral Smith

Offline Dee

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2007, 02:48:34 AM »
I just lightly scanned over the other posts, so I may have missed this very question, but I would ask. How did they shoot BEFORE you had the throats opened up? I have seen folks take good shooting guns, and have modification performed believing the would somehow ENHANCE the gun to shoot even better, with the opposite and often irreverable results. Just wondering.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline okie john

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2007, 04:53:41 PM »
How did they shoot BEFORE you had the throats opened up?

Dee, thanks for your question. The 29-2's throats have always been .432". After I had the 629's throats opened to .430", groups shrank in half.


Okie John

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2007, 07:35:44 AM »
  A common really bad modification to modern revolvers is to rethroat the barrel.  They are all already too long and large, which is hard on accuracy, so increasing bullet jump and deformation here is almost certain to be detrimental except for smoothing a really rough throat which is scraping lead from bullets.
  When cylinder throats are opened larger than standard bullet diameter, bullet size must go up with it or accuracy WILL suffer.  In other words, if a gun is opened a couple thousandths larger than jacketed to get a proper fit to the barrel with cast, accuracy with jacketed will suffer, as their diameter is fixed. 

  The experiment which opened my eyes widest on this subject was when I made up swaging dies to swage factory jacketed 125 gr 357 bullets to fit 359 cylinder throats.  Groups shrank from around to 3 inches at 25 yards to a tight cloverleaf.  Powder charge didn't matter once the bullets fit.
Veral Smith

Offline Racer X

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2007, 10:16:55 AM »
  When cylinder throats are opened larger than standard bullet diameter, bullet size must go up with it or accuracy WILL suffer.  In other words, if a gun is opened a couple thousandths larger than jacketed to get a proper fit to the barrel with cast, accuracy with jacketed will suffer, as their diameter is fixed. 

Veral -- Regarding throat size, I am having one of the well-reputed custom revolversmiths make a new line-bored cylinder made for my Blackhawk 45 Colt. I specified I wanted to be able to shoot .452 plain-base cast bullets accurately, without leading. He insists on cutting the throats to .453. In your opinion, is this too large? Groove diameter will be ~.4505 to .451. 
Estranged eldest son of Mom and Pops Racer and older brother of legendary Mach V race car driver Speed Racer

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2007, 05:23:39 PM »
  The man you chose is well reputed because he knows the facts.  Take his advise and you'll be happy
                                                                                                                                                         like me.   
Veral Smith

Offline nebrguy

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2009, 04:11:50 PM »
Male deer in the rut are inedible ????   BS

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2009, 06:25:14 PM »
   If you try a mulie buck in the rut, you'll be supprised that a dog can eat it.  Same with North Idaho white tails, but I never noticed a bad flavor with Michigan whitetails.  Perhaps of interest here is the fact that there are 40 different whitetail deer variations, across the U.S.  Add to that the millions of different kinds of forbes they live on, at different times of the year, and one can expect to see a 'flavor change' once in a while.
 
  453 is a good size, even though it will be .002 over to start with.  Barrel throats wear quite rapidly, so you bullets will remain perfectly fitted for a long time.
Veral Smith

Offline Terbltim

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2009, 01:33:03 PM »

Beyond lapping, what do you recommend? Should I consider a 240 or 250-gr. WFN, or even the Ogival Wadcutter?

Okie John


I hope y'all will pardon my getting into the discussion at this part of Okie John's questions.
Veral already said it but I feel "called" to highlight his advice of getting a slug kit and carefully slug that barrel as a first step.
I've developed the opinion that unless the barrel is slugged BEFORE the fire-lapping, you may think you're done before you really are.
Here is how I got on to it.
I got the slugs and pushed one through from the muzzle. I was HORRIFIED! (as Veral suggested I might be in his explanation shown on his web site. I hate slugging any barrel for the first time because of the horror I always get from the experience.)
Also, as expected, I found the constriction at the barrel/receiver threads, (it felt like the slug hit a wall.) I reasoned that once the slug went through that constriction I no longer knew the diameter of the rest of the barrel, only that of the constriction.
So, I pushed another one slowly into the barrel and when I felt that I was reaching the constriction pushed the slug back out with a series of short wooden dowels pushed in from the cylinder end, one after another, until the slug came back out.
When I did this I just happened to be holding the gun barrel pointed down and the slug FELL out of the last half-inch of the barrel!!
This could only mean that the last portion of the barrel was a larger diameter than the rest of the barrel.
After that revelation I did some more measuring with the aforementioned technique and then got on with fire-lapping.
The result is a revolver that shoots one-hole groups from the sand-bags and, (as Veral also mentioned,) all of my shooter's errors are now magnified with no blame left for the gun.
I hope its making me a better shooter.
My guess for your gun is a tight constriction AND a loose muzzle.
Check for it and hope it ain't so.
Either way measuring it with slugs will let you know what you're up against and how to know when you've whipped it.
"Stop global whining!"

Offline Veral

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2009, 05:45:20 PM »
  Delightfull explaination in another mans words. 

  Horrified when slugging a new barrel. - I really get a kick out of starting a slug then letting the owner of a gun push it through, because their face always turns a few shades lighter color, most blanch out white, and a look of shock is always evident!  They suddenly think they have bought the worst 'lemon' in the gun shop!  But push through slugs will reveal that few to none are really precision as they should be.

  After lapping a barrel, a push through slug will pass through just like most people think it should.  In other words, most people ignorantly believe their pretty new gun has a perfect bore, but wonder why it isn't perfectly accurate. 
Veral Smith

Offline Paladin56

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 06:26:18 AM »
Veral,

How does one measure a slug from a S&W? I only have standard mic's and calipers.

Thanks,
David


Offline Paladin56

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Re: 44 Magnum Trouble
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 01:09:57 PM »
   For barrels with uneven number of grooves, a fixture is required to measure diameter, and there is no easy other way.  I have fixtures for all calibers, of coarse, and fairly often measure for mold customers.  However exact diameter isn't important, so long as the bore is straight and measurement at the rifling origin (barrel throat)  is smaller than the cylinder throats.  If your barrel slugs fall freely through the cylinder throats, fit to the cylinder throats and the bullets will think the barrel is perfect, if it is lapped, or if it feels smooth with the push through slugs.  If you feel any jerks or tight spots with the push through slugs, lapping will correct it.

Thanks for the info Veral. I did a search and found the answer.